JUDY 6. 1950

sired.

J. O. C. CAMPBELL. Counsel To The Commission.

DAILY CROSSWORID U

FISNEIiMEN'S. LOAN INQUIRY

NEXT MEETING NONIAY. JIILY 10. 10 MI.

- NOIITN IIIISTIGO

The public inquiry -into fisherrnen's which commenced before Honour Judge J. S. Deskoches. at Charlottetown on July -lth. is adiourn- ed to meet at Stella North Rustico on Monday. at 10 A. M. The public is invited to is present. an d evidence may bl presented by anyone interested with or without the aid of counsel. as de-.

M a r I s Hall. July 10th.

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INJURED BY BOMB

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Following is an official trans- script of the evidence taken on Tuesday. the opening day of the Commission inquiry under Judge J. S. Desltoches into the operations of the Fisherman's Loan Board. The examination of the witnesses was conducted by the Commission counsel. Mr. .l.O.C. Campbell, K. C.:

lion. B. W. Leltsge Sworn

Mr. Campbell: lrirst of all you live in Charlottetown and are a former I..ieutens.nt Governor of the Province and I believe you were the first Chairman of the I-"isher-men's Loan Board in Prince Edward Island.

Mr. l.ePage: That's correct. Q.-That commenced in A. That's correct.

Q.-And it was by, agreement entered into between the Dominion Government and the Provincial Government whereby certain sums were to be advanced by the Dom- inion Government end certain sihns by the Provincial Government-two third by the Dominion-one-third by the Province-is that correct? A. Yes.

Q-And then this money was to be used to aid needy fishermen? A. Correct.

Q,-Now tell in your own words how you went about that business. A. we didn't receive any specific regulations.

Q.-No regulations made under the Act? A. No. We consulted the Province of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick with reference to how they were going to administer it. Got some information-not very important-all we got from Nova Sootia had to do with large fishing vessels-their needs were altogeth- er different to those of this Prov- ince where we have only individual fishermen. V ,

Q.-Needs of the Province were different? A. Yes.

Q.-You decided you couldnt follow regulations in New Bruns- wick and Nova Scotia. A. No. Not altogether. We started system of loaning to the fishermen. Of course the fisherman had to make ap- plication and sign a. lot of inform- ntion with regard to his being a fisherman. to the using of mater- ials he was to get. signing declar- ation on the same paper. Then if Board thought it advisable. order sent to a merchant in his vicinity and the note for him to sign with instructions to merchants to de- liver nothing except for the bene- fit of the fisherman-fishing gear and other equipment.

Q.-Equipment used in fishing? A. Then when the merchant re-

I91”?

. turned his invoice with a state-

ment of the supplies that he sent and the note that the fisherman signed. we investigated and for- warded to the Treasury Depart- ment for payment.

Checks sent to Merchants

Qecheok sent to merchant? A. The Treasury Department paid the

t..nt for the goods.

Q.-so that the whole idea was that the man had to get goods be- fore he got money to cover. A. Yes.

Q.-These checks were issued to merchants for goods. A. Yes.

Q.-As far as the bona fide part of it was concerned. you relied on or trusted the merchant to some extent. A. Yes to some extent. We had key men all over the Prov- ince to give us considerable in- formation.

Q.-I suppose you wrote to them for information and then formed some idea-A. Yes. In some cases we Investigated personally with the fishermen.

Q.-Did you build any nah houses while you were still there? A. Yes. Twenty or twentyone fish houses.

Q.-Tell us what they were used for. A. We investigated the" need- about the most important item was a building to process the fish.

Q.-On the shore? A. Yes. Little shnntie no fish buyers would go near them. our Government ar- ranged with Ottawa in 193'! that this would be permissible. Out of these same funds.

Q.-Some were quite large. A. Yes. they were good-sired.

Q.-Do you recall offhand what they would cost? A. It would only be an estimate-.1 think possibly two to four or five thousand dol- lars.

Q.-As high as five? A. They are still standing-perman fly built. Q.-Do you recall how distribut- ed over the Province. A. I think they were pretty fairly distributed in the three counties. That was the understanding.

Q.-This is not quite an ethics- ion. We still need your infonmetian. Just what are the fishing areas in Prince Edward Island. Judge Dee- ltoches wants to know. Starting in Tignish. A. Mlminegesh. Tignish. Alberton. Cape Egmond. Fifteen Point. and then there is ltustico. Q.-what about the South Shore? A. No. not that I recall. Q.-There is a factory there? A. Yes. , Q.-ltecail building any place on the North shore? A. at Peter's. one buut there.

Q.-From St. Peter's to souris. A. one at Newfrsge, than Osble Head. souris. one between Souris and East Point on south shore

and Murray Harbor. I Just can't recall the other. Principal Points

Q.-what would you say were the principal points-would there be fire or ten rtmipel points on the Island? A. h ya.

Q-It was done by considering the best or principal fishing points in the Counties -Tignish. Albert Mlmnegssh. West Prince-Egmont Bay. Fifteen Point-East Prince; New London. llustico in Queens. Cape Wolfe, st. Peter's, Cable Head, souris or near souris and Murray Harbor in King's County. A. Yes. I

Mr. Desltocher (Commissioner). while you're on the point, you supplied no fishing centers from Cape Wolfe to Murray Harbor on the South Side. A. I don't reinsta- bgg anything being spent there as

Cominission Into I Fishe1'meniiI:qan Board

far as fishing is concerned.

Mr. Campbell: . Are there any fishing centers taking from Vic- toria to Wood Island, apart from Charlottetown. A. :No. I guess Wood Island. apart from Char- lottetown. A. I guess Wood Island II the only important one there would be. Now since the war it is built up.

Q. - I notice fishermen going out there and hauling traps. I guess Wood Island is the only im- portant one there would be. Now since the war it is built up.

Q-I notice fishermen going out there and hauling traps. I don't suppose they do that in Charlotte- town. A. Not that I know of. Canoe Cove is another place we have missed. It's quite a fishing center.

Q-Would you say Canoe Cove is more of a fishing center than Victoria? A. About the same.

Q Did you ever experience any difficulty in your time? How did repayments come in. A. I think fairly well. We had nothing to do with records of repayment.

Lean Years

Q - You had some pretty lean years during your term. A. Yes.

Q When did you leave the Board -in 1939 about August? A. When I was appointed Lieutenant Govern-

or.

Q-Who followed you? A. Mr H. H. Cox.

Q-Can you tell us who follow- ed Mr. Cox. A. Mr. Wade Hughes.

Q-After Mr. Wade Hughes? A. Mr. Marin Gallant and then the Hon. Wilfred Arsenault followed him. I believe he was Chairman at the conclusion of the other Board.

Q-Is there anything further you wish to add? A. Nothing I can re- call.

Q-Nothing arose during your term. A. There were a few abuses. We found from information that a very small proportion - perhaps a half dozen cases during my term had ill-used and sold their gear. htet they had bought with the loan. Passed it over to the auth- orities. One fellow got a couple of months for it. As a general thing. fishermen are a very fine class. They used money and gear hon- estly for their benefit.

Q. - There was one other form of relief. Were you there when that storm was on. There was ad- ditional money. A. Thirty thousand dcllars granted. Province paid up a third.

Q - Additional money from 01.- tawa doesn't appear here. It does have a little bit of- bearing on your I-fonor's investigation. People say this is relief money. Storm in fall of 1938 and that fall there was an- other agreement (which I will file in due course). There was an- other agreement. 330,000 was paid up by Ottawa and was matched one-third by the Province in the same way, and that was direct rc- llef to replace-losses suffered in this storm and that fund was ad- ministered by your Board. but it was direct relief and no notes were taken for it. A. We investigated each case.

Q.-A man would lose his gear in s storm-you divided the money as best you could. A. Yes.

Q--That had nothing to do with Fishermen's Loans. A. Nothing at all.

Q-Now is there anything fur- ther? A. Nothing very much.

Q. -- Your memory is pretty good. , Mr. Deanoches (Commissioner):

From 1036 to I930 when you vac- ated offlce of Chairman of Fisher- men's Loan Board. what were con- ditions among fishermen? A. Con- ditions weren't good by any means. There were some fishermen. of course. who would have taken loans. but when they had to give a note and pay back. they wouldn't bother our Board any.

Organisation

Q.-Now. lillr. Campbell. has the witness what was the organization of his staff, clerical staff if any.

Mr. Campbell: Mrs. Higson wasn't with you at the start. A. I wouldn't remember - Miss Gai- lant was the first.

Q. - Henry Gallant's daughter- Brenda Gallant.

Mr. Desllochesr What was her official eppolntrnent.

Mr. I.ePege: Just a stenegraphcr.

Mr. Campbell: She and you were the only staff you had. A. There were twovother members on the Commission.

Q. - Who were they? A. Mr. Acorn, H.H. Cox from Souris and Mr. Aneas Gallant from Bloom- field.

Q. - You spoke of information you got in the country. Get that free? A. In some places we had clergymen to get us information. Relied on good men. So far as Queen's County was concerned. we had personal knowledge of all fishermen.

Mr. Desllochesz Ask the witness if these applications are made with the fisherman or the merchant.

' Mr. Campbell: Would applic- ation originate with fishermen or merchant. A. The fisherman would be the man.

Q - Would you say that the merchants hearing of the loans would tell a fisherman "Here now.

I

. II-is aaehlag so If.

no

you can get your gear from me" A. No real knowledge of that. I sup- pose the fishermen assisted them in getting their share.

.0. - In any event the applica- tions came to you from the fish- crmen. A. Oh yes.

Q. - Mr. LePage is the furthest removed from the present. Com- mlssioner: Thank .you very much for your assistance. Mr. Lepageg My memory doesn't serve me like it used to.

Mr. Marin Gallant Sworn.

Ml Campbell: You were Chair- man on the I"ishermen's Loan 3”” 10'' Just one year. A. One year and a month.

Q f Give us the date. A. First 8PD0lnled in place of Aneas Gal. iant lAprlI 6. I944. and then was l;;tl:0lr5:e,d Chairman on February

9 - On the Board as a member with Mr. Hughes as Chairman to Febru-mo 23rd 1943. A. Yes.

Qmwhen you resigned? A. Yes.

Q --On board four yup; A chairman for one year. A. Yes.

Q - When yo went on as a member, Wade Hughes was Chair. man? A. Yes.

Q-Until you became chairman. A. Yes.

Q. Recall who other membe; was that first time? A. Don't re- member now.

Q - I think it was Mr. Camp- bell. A. Yes, that's who it was.

Q-Now you came on in 1944. You followed Mr. LePage as Chairman. Wade Hughes followed him. Do you know when Wade Hughes became Chairman? A. No.

Q - Chairman before you went on? A. Yes.

Q - Know how long Mr. Cox was Chairman. A. Wasn't chair- man very long.

Q - Short time any way. A. Yes.

Q - When you went on the Board until you were Chairman, you Just acted in an advisory cap- acity to other members. A. Oh yes.

Q - That is from 1944 to 1047 you didn't know a great deal about the internal workings of it, A, Na,

Q m Usually met once a month? A. Sometimes a little oftener.

Q - You have heard Mr. Le- Page's evidence as to the methods used in his time. You made inquir- ies. You're from Prince County. When it was an application from Prince County. before you were Chairman. would you be consulted? A. Beg your pardon?

Q - Before you were Chairman. were you consulted about Prince County loans? A. Yes.

Q - You would be required to approve Prince County loans. A. Yes. if they were good loans. if the parties were good.

Q - Before the loan was made, did you satisfy yourself as to the parties? A. Yes.

Q - Make inquiries of 'some- body? A. Yes.

Q - Did You use clergymen to some extent? A. On occasion. yes. Not too often, especially away where I didn't know parties, such as Tignish.

Q - In SI Bay A. Y

Q - When you became chair- man, was Mrs. l-Iigson there then? A. Yes. .

side or Egmont you would know the people. es.

Boat-Building Loan;

Q - Tell us how you operated. same way as Mr. I.ePags describ. ed?'A. Even before I became chairman when I became a mem. ber of the Board the greater part of loans asked for were fairly large loans. These loans were for build- ing boats.

Q - After you became chair- man. A. From '45 on,

Q - Loans became larger-what do you mean by that. A. Not so large.

Q - What was a normal loan be. fore that. A. I would say they had asked for 340. or 060.

Q - A small loan.

Mr. Desltoche (Commissioner): Tell me the maximum a flsherrnen could spend.

Mr. Campbell: What was the maximum a fisherman could spend in those years. A. Seems to me it was 340. Later on when I was chairman there were demands made for buying second hand boats, engines - we set a certain maximum.

Q - How much was it? A. About 3200. In some cases a little more than that. They were getting to building larger boats than pre- viously, wanting bigger loans. In a good many cases loans demanded

by fishermen belonging to some union, or association of some kind - the association would back them up. secure it.

Q - Loan made to the associa- tion. Large loan? A. The manager of the association signed a letter and say this man wants to buy an engine. wants to build a new boat - give him three or four hundred dollars. Besides that. there were loans made early in the spring to the association itself.

Q - You started them off. A. They could pay it off in the fall. Then the loans made to individuals - fishermen. clear of that, who were in good standing with the l'ishermen's Loan Beard.

Q - This pressure for larger amounts commenced in 1014 and continued increasing. A. Yes, somewhere around there. Don't know whether it was increased very much. To a certain extent.

Q - I notice in Exhibit "C" that there are a fairly large nuniser of loans. I notice there are a hundred and .. 2 of loans of 080.!!! from the External Auditor's report; a considerable number for 000.00; one to l'ishermen's Co-operative in

Charlottetown for U.t00.00-about

one hundred loam. according to the report over sasooo. A. Oh yes. Q - Large loans made largely to suocistiornl A. Were for buy- ing fishing establishments such.ss at Mlmne h. '

Q - What did they do? A. On the south side - they were bought during my term.

Q-What were bought? A. Build- ing belonging to Mr. George Wall. Q - Bought by whom? A. Fish- annnb Union down there. The!

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