gaaatucb’

uaoactfie.

VOL. 22.

Itrgtztgat-:_'::

HOUSE oi‘ [is§i3Mi3LY. CONDENSED REPORT.

_3’.‘_t‘0tt€UIt1§fl. _,

wIDNllD!.Y March 10. 1852.

(Remainder iy‘ Debate concluded.)

Ilassaol or Ilia l*'.xc:t.i.urcv_ -ritr: Liuur. Govaaisoit concuuirimi t\Ir. Mooivcv’s Bii.i., T0 COMPEL |’aot-ii.ia:- 'l'0lI 'ro Rizcoitn -riisiit 'l‘i'ri.i:s.

Hon Mr. POPE. in reply to Mr. Palmer, said he accounted all that had fallen from tho honortible and learned iiiern er. N-'ll1_l'V9 to t a Message, as of no more cons: uence or value than an idle flourish of train ts. 'I‘lic honorable and le.-iriieil iiieniber, he said, admitted that His Excellency‘: opinion wits perfectly just, tltat the Message, in itself, was all right. and that the llill ought not to pass; an e was opposed to the lloiise‘s acting in iirsuaiice of the view which he himself pronounced to be correct. _ is aim was evidetttly to iuiplicate the Giiveriiiiiciit, if possible. in some int- propriety of conduct. or dereliction of duty; but lii.-i atteiiipt woulil

‘ t

~< 9.

_ prove or establisltnotliiiig btii the iinpnteiice o his tiiiltce.

would have redoutided riiuch more to his credit. If ll“ l"“l ''“''“'’‘l the Government in it trioro open nitd direct manner. t woul cer- tainly have been much more manly and independent to have II‘IOV8Il it vote of censure against the Goveriiiiie.-it, tliiin doggedly to oppose the course which, ticcordiiig to his own shewiiig, was the_oiily pro- per one. The I|0Il0i't|lll0t member then spoke for soiuu time in fa- vottr ofthe Bill (for which. he said, he voted in l8:l2;) and shew- ed how such it Bill might. in perfect uccordiitice with the principles ofjustice, and with due regard to the valid interests of all coiicerti- ed. be passed into law here, where all Titles to Lands are not only of certain origin, but so recent, (being almost within this memory of persons now living.) as to be traced back without ditliculty; al- though, were such it law to take effect in England, it would. owing to the impossibility of tracing Titles to original Grants, create uni- \'eraal perplexity. and raise up. in many instances, iiliiiost_ tiisuper- ableobstiicles to the devising and conve in of Estates in Land. The Royal Allowance to the Bill, had not, however, he wits sati_.-i- Iied, been withheld out of regard for any principle, but merely in coinplianco with the reiiioniitrancea of the I’roprietor_s at lloiiie. But their reiiionstrnnces and representations. it could easily be shown, had not the slightest foundation in truth or justice. The nlijiect of the Bill, it was very true, was to prevent persons who had assum- ed and exercised all the rights of real proprietors to estates. to which they had no valid Titles, from iinpoiiin upon ignorant iridivi- duals, by means of invalid and frsdulent conveyances ofthe whole, or any portions of such estates, for valuable considerations. :I‘liii-i had but too frequently been done; and in several iristaiices, iridi- viduals who had be ‘ d upon. had. in order to retain poa. session of the iriiprovoincnts which they liiid matte on the laiiilii, Iiiinestly purchased by, but fraudulently conveyed to, limit. been obliged to take leases of tlieiti, and pay rents for thent. I0 P'°[t|‘|9- tors of wlioiu at the .time they made their purchases, they had never dreamt. Tho devi-i'

ing for the iipoliiition of proprietors; for whilst that means would clfectunllv protect all who wished to become parcliaiters of land. front the friiuils of preleiirleil Proprietors, it won only render the Titles of litit_-ful Proprietors or claimants still more secure, it pos-

aib o.

Mr. TIIURNTON opposed the motion fill‘ llle ‘l'|»“‘-ll-'"tt‘3 "I. ll!" order to carry up the Ilill tiitlin Couticil; and he looked itpoii Ilia I'Ixce|lcncy‘s .\Ieiisage. in rt light, very different frotri that to which it w.ts viewed by tho tinveriiiiieiit meiiiberii; and put an inter re- tatioii upon it, very ditferettt front that given to it by them. I av- ing passed the Ilill, and ordered it to be taken up to the Council, Iliiiiornlile nit-iiiliers, were. he said, bound to itupport it; and. al- though it was in th--. desk of an lioiioralila iiiotiiber of the llouso, they ought .to act with respect to it. as if it were actually in the haiiils of the Coun--,iI. It ought to he sent up without dfilflyi "ml the Asst-iiilily ought not to taltuiiiiy further tuition of it. “til” _I.l|l'r)’ iihnulil kumv how it liiil been dealt with by the Council: Illllln ll |‘¢‘-- j--cto-il Iiy tho Council. it ivutilil then he the duty of ll_|I! -\-"-'“”||l>l)' to support the Bill by an A-ldrt.-ss to IIt'I' Maj.-.sty. With respe-t:t to Ilis I".tcelli-iicv'ii Ilnsuagii, tho Iltllltlfitltltl iiii,-iiili-yr then tII)'lI‘fH'tI. (II it it would li.i\'e lit-niiiii dirri-t iiitcrli-ri-iit'i: with the (Il'lllIt.‘l’iIllt\ll! ofthe lI.ni«i lriil it li--uni sent or (I4'lI\'l'I'tEtIs Wllllil the tiieatsliro to whit-‘t it li.i.l I'l‘I.i‘l‘9‘lII?t‘. w.is ittiil nuili-r tlii-ir iziiii-‘tilt-r-tllfllli "ml ll” cuttld not lit-li.-vi-, that one iiieiiihi-r of the (iuveriiiiieiit would. lll giiish c.i<i-, l||v:t Ii--l.I it to lm lIIlIllf\\'I'(H than iiiiuoitstitntioiial and it

.ri.-ct iIt'i'l|l'lI of the |I'I\'Ill‘=' -s til‘ the .‘\<<H|IIllV- Ill“ I"(“3"ll”"")'v ‘ll Wt‘\’t'f, wlimi lie rtI'lII tho \It-s-iago, thought, that the Bill wiis_be- l|I're tho l'oiiiicil; nitd he (\lr. llt vriitoiil ‘-W3 W7)’ hf “"" I"_-'l' fog ili<po.md to put any other I.li.iti ttie most l';ivour.itilii construction in on lli-i Exce|lency’s act. 'I‘he course which this Ilouse has hi- “P4-rto pursued with respect to the measure in t|llP..‘illt|n. they ought tli be prep:ii'eiI tti follow up. The lionuralile the 'l r--:i.-iirer has cati- toiilly niliiiitleil, that he erred with respect to it; "WI “'0 l_""'“""_l'l° dliu I4L‘.I1Ir'r oi‘ the tioveriiiiieiit has exvii.---d ltittmrlf I-‘I’ lI|=4 |‘I!II|I-*S- tm-as ml the some of his not being in the House at the-_tiinc ‘the Ilill pnsseil I. iii_i sell‘. was certainly very well aware of the irregula- rily ofthe course which was being pursued by the ll-Ill-Wig lillli I knew it would he in vain for me to oppose it, supported, as it won, l'Y |lII- tiiiijiirit '; and, besides, I wished to have the sense of the Lcgisl.-iture fully tested upon the measure. \Vc niay._l llIIul~'. lul-‘0 it for granted, that if the Bill pass the two Ilouses, llts I-..\ce|lenY:y will he prepared to support it by it recoiiiiiioiitlatinii to the Iloiiio (iovorniiieiit; although, by the loyal Inslftlclltttifi lie is precluded from assuming to it ridi-ed, it can scarcely be siipposi-d. th:tt he will do otherwise. if he regard only the IIIl|ltlIt‘t iii l\'IIICll it hits passed the popular Branch of the I.i-gislitture, in iuliiiili the Justice and necessity ofthe measure have heart i-troualfl '|""-"Ml "P9" ll)’ the lending government tnetnbera,tind in which izs pas:-agelttiit been opposed by otil one or two. it more courtesy to I is Excellency it is, I think, ue to hiiu, that his Mossiigo l|III||lltI appear upon our Journal; for, notwithstanding its olii-ions iiiiprnprio-ty, it must bo quite evident to every one, that iiotliiiig could he further .I'l‘t|lI.I the intention ofllis Excellency, than a direct or deliberiite vioIiiti_on of the privileges of the Asseiiibl . \Vitli respect to the Ihll, it has been regularly carried through this House, pasiied,.iiid ordered to be carried up to the Council; rind, nntwitlistiiinliiig tlits after conside- ration of the irregularity of its introduction, can Its most- Isticy's Message. I am of opinion, that to rescind the order for car. tying up the Bill to the Council would not reiiisdy the irregularity, but rather iacrsassit; and. besides, for the House so to retrace their steps. in consequence of His Excellency's Message. W0|l_ltl make that Message a hive breach of privileges, how much dis- posed sosver they iv-ig be to view it in suotlier light; for, in _its effect, it would then amount to an iriiinediats unconstitutional in- terference with tho pvooeediiigs and deliberations of the Assembly. Besides, I liiive always been ofopiriiou, that with re-spsct to every iinportiint measure, the Council should tulis their full shirt-e of res- poiisibility. They will see by our Journals, that the Bill shoiild noiv be before them, and are, therefore, prepared to tako_ action

' f they concur with this iouas respecting it, their con- currenco will ivo ridditioiial weight to any representations in favour of it. which 1 Assembly may make to the I o Government. In every point of view, it, therefore, appears to Ind. lllll ll"! mil] p‘|'0Pe|' ¢0|I|'Io for its, just now,‘ to pursue, with re orsiios ‘to the

ill. is to allow it to be taken up to the Council, and to await their tllclllttn with NI t to It. before we deliberate with it view to any

further rocsedin in an it.

Mr. Btflflfirfunhr ox siuad,coacorniag the course which he had tsk with rI would be ridiculed, if he

the Bill. I said, that he hail In-en afraid he

' an Address to Iler M.-iji.-sly in

favour of the Bill. before it had been submitted to the autioii of the

Legislative Council: and be aukuowlsdgod, that ho had taken inl-

' morning. to make his inoiion for

‘ht’ "ll" Vfldllll 0‘ "'0 hills WI! he might get it passed without

' I he houur-able iiiciiibsr also rigaiii i-,.\pl.~iiii-

ed, how the Bill happened to be still in his pa-cssioii; arid iulded.

had to hbudb an aisiiiber of

the Govsriiiiient, or b say one also. He was vsry g ad to find Mr. iiion so much in vosr sfsbs aiaasura.

Ilsa. Mr. 091.88, is rsply is Mr. 'I'li¢raIsu, stissrssd. that it

would be very improper for the Assembly to send up a Bill to the Le islative Council, knowing that the could not legally pass it: an as responsibility which the honorable iiiernber (Mr. Tliorntoii) might think would attach to them about the particular measure in question, they would, if it were sent up to them, at oucegct rid pf that, by referring to the Royal Instructions. which prohibit their passing it, without Her Majesty's permission first ob-

ain

Ilon. Mr. POPE. Yes, and record their names upon their Jour- nal accordingly. as we ought to have done.

Mr: MON'I'GO.\IEIlY said, a motion to discharge an Order for carrying up a Bill to the Council. two days after the Order had been ma e, was certainly a very singular, if not an altogether unprece- dented and very irn roper one. His Excellency believed the Bill ‘ ; and be (Mr. Montgomery) thought the

roper way to deiil with it was to allow it to n u _ 1,, Pu.-_ suance of the Order. that the Council might take some action upon '. There would then, he thought. be nothing to prevent the As- sembly froiii following up what they had already done by an Address to Her Majesty: and there would be time enough to do so.

llon. Mr. WIIELAN. Some honorable meiiibcrii appear to en- tertain a rather extravagant regard for precedents; and, in their ttrllltllill. no course can a right, unless it can be shown to be in accordance with precedent. But. for my part, I ntn of upiiiion, that too much weight is frequently attiiclied to the existence, or to alisence as the case iiiny be, ofa precedent for It coriteiripliited course of action; and all considerations concerning precedents, might often, I.II|lIlI(. be very well dispensed with. If a course proposed be right, it requires no precedent to confirm it. I ' e wrong, no precedent should have force to sustain it. For the House to send up the Bill in question to the Council, knowing that the Council caniiot parts it, in the face ofthe Royal Instructions to the contrary, would be to practice sheer liuinbug :iiid delusion upon the people. I was not in the Ilouse when the Bill passed; but ifl litid been re- si-nt, I would not have been prepared to oppose it, on accouiito the Royal Iiistructioiis; for, I confess, I was not aware, that the in- troduction cf the Bill had been contrary to them: but I do not think there is any thing culpable in such ignorance; for it cannot be supposed. that we are at all times bound to know what are the mea- sures to which the Royal Allowance has been re use . t, tow- sver, now appears, that the Bill in question was disallowed by Ilia Majesty, King Williarn the «tth; and that, therefore, in accordance with the Royal Instraetioiis. it ought not to have been re-iiitroduc- ed into the Legislature for enactment, without express leave for that

urpose, first obtained from the Sovereign. Its introduction into, and passage through, the Ilouse, was tliorefore, positively wrong; and as w at was wrong yesterday, cannot. by any possibility, be right to-diiy, it on ht to be quite ovidont to the House. that having fallen into error, t e best thing they can do, is honestly to confess it: and at once to stay all further proceedings in ii wroii direction, with respect to the business, as it fortunately happens to be in their power to do so.

Mr. III.-U? ULAY. If, we do not know what to do without Ilia Excolleiicy’s recommendation, we are worse tltnn babies. The (IOVt,'I'fIfl|8III menibers ofthe Ilouite have given it as their opinion, that the necessity and justice of the measure cannot be disputed; and it is an opinion in which I fully concur. Besides, according to their showing. all that is requisite, to secure it it favourable consi- tli.-ratioii at Ilotiie, iii an exertion of Ilis llxcr-:lleticy‘a influence in support of it. which they have not licsitated to proiiiise us, provid- ed We will tidopt the course whiclt, they city, it is is wish we should pursue. But. in en , ifall that is necessary to ensure the complete success of so just and necessary a measure, be Ilis ‘mel- Ii-iicy‘s recoiiiiiietidatioii, we cantiot. for a moment, suppose, that —liowi.-vcr great and manifest the ' ' _ course may have been, and oven although we should tint just subitiit to his im- plied dii:tatiou—lie will not be so unriiurciful to as, poor blind crea- tures, as to with told his recommendation. If such it Bill had been passed into law thirty years ago, it woul have pr v the ruin of rntiny who have been victimized by the frauds ofillegnl claimants of land; and. as its enactment, even now. is scarcely less impera- tivi.-ly deiiiauded. for the prevention of siiriiliir frauds in future. every means ought to be had recourse to,which will be likely to pcdito its enactment. The Bill would unquestionably be iriucli strengthened by its receiving the support of the Council; and. wit it view to their concurrence, it sliou tl certainly be seiit up to tlietii : mid. if they agree to it, I cannot see what is to prevent their ado t- iug a course, similar to that proposed here, with res ect to it; or, I suppose, they will have a copy of IIis Excelloncy's Message as well as we.

lloii. Mr. POPE. The course now proposed is. I mllllll. Nllllef a novel one; but there ciin he no impropriety in our pursuing ‘ So long as the Ilill is within the walls tiftliis Ilouse, it is under our contronl; :ind if we Iiiid. whilst it is so, that we have fallen into any iiiistake or error. with respect to it. it is not only perfectly ctltllpitlcttl to us In eiidcavnur tn ri-.ctif that mistake or error,_ httt it is our dirty to do so. It is surely tiiore honorable. at any titite. to retract an erroneous opinion, than to persevere in error. 'I‘lis old iida e says, “ A fool never clianges. but a wise man often.” Let us t on act, not like fools. but like wise men; and, having dis- covered iin oversight, I--t us aclinowledge it, and its it in our powef. niin-nil our mistake. Persuiitled that the only wise course is to do so, I heg leave to move that the Order for carrying up the Bill to tho tfoiiiicil liotliscliarged; and that the Bill he referred hac to the Committee ofthe wltolo Ilouso, with tlis view of adopting an _Ad- dress to her Majesty tlis Queen, praying the Royal leave to be given to the enactment ofsuch ii I.:iw.

Ilon. Mr. COLES. 'l‘liat is exactly the iiuin and substance of my

(D as

motion.

Mr. IIAVILAND. Aftsra Bill has been regularly passed by the House. and ordered to be carried up to the council, they have no can - stitutional power to retain, it 2 it has then virtually passed front their hands. 'l‘o n rec to the motion of the honorable the Treasurer, would be to esiiililisli a preceileiit which might roye very detrim_en- tnl to opultir rights and privileges. Suppose, or instance, that just iiiiiiieiliiitely licfore tho close of a Session, some yer important measure should he carried through this Ilouse. with tlte general concurrence and approbation of the members;and that, the business ofthe Session being supposed to be over, a number of the country members, who had so ported the measure, had returned to their homes; and that such of the rnsinbors as had been opposed to it, finding the then constituted the majority of the House. should make a motion fiir withholding the Bill from the Counci , the motion would be carried, and it Bill which had been passed with the ‘full concurrence oftlio majority of the ivliole Ilouse, and which might be of great iiiiportaiice to tho geuerel interests, would actually he abiindoned. for the tiins, and, perliupi-, altogeldlof loll. 10 ll_|9 de- triiiietit of the public interests. T is is. I tliiak, uitc uttfficient to shew how dangerous u recedent the House will establish. if they consent to the motion 0 the Ilon. the 'l‘rsasurer. But why is the House thus called upon to act unconiititutioiially attd endanger po-

ular rights and privile es.’ Why, for no better a reason than this :

ecauso the members o the Govsrntnent in t is Hotiso have ‘been, if not ignorant, oblivious of their duty, and to save their credit, the House must consent to stultify themselves, and betray their constituents. That the Bill in question was irregularly introduced. and has been carried through the House in contempt of the Royal Instructions, cannot be denied; but for such irregularity and con- tempt, no one has been to bliinie except the members ofthe Govern- ment themselves; and with t cm, the censure should ‘rest, s to the Message o His Excellency, it is an undeniable violation ofthe privileges of the Assembly, sad the assumption of a right ivliicli the Queen hersclfciinnot exercise, with respect to any measure in pro rear through Parliament.

IIon. Mr. POPE. The Bill to which the Message has reference is not in ro was through this House.

Mr. ll.-IVILAND. So much the worse. That only makes the Interference so much the more unjustifiiilile. The honorable and learned inernhcr then concluded by reading, in support of. his opi- nions, the following extract rotn a Treatise upon the w, Privi- leges. Proceedings, and Usage of Parliament. by Thomas Erskine May. Esq., a favorite work, he observed, with the lion. the Trea- Iuror.

" On the Iltth November. 1640, it was moved, that some course might bstakeri for preventing the inconvenience of _|lis ltliijtisty being informed efany this that is in agitation in this House. be- foro it is determined. In t is rsmonstrance of the Lords and Coin- nioiis to Charles the First. I'th December. I641. it was declared.

' That it is their ancient and undoubted i‘ bt sad privilege. that

your Itsjssty tiuglit act to taks any uotics ii any matter in sgiistiou

CHARLOTTETOWN, PRINCE EDWAR D ISLAND,

or debuts in either of the Houses of Parliament. but by their in- formation or agreement; and that Your Majesty ought not to pro- pound any condition, provision, or limitation, to any Bill or Act in debate or preparation in either House of Parliament. or to manifest or declare your consent or dissent, ap robation or dislike, of the lflme. before it be presented to Your iijesty in due course of Par- liament.’ " _ Thus, concluded the honorable and learned member, it clearly ap- j’°‘"'i that the only time at which the Governor can constitutional- y express his sentiments, to either or both Houses of the Le is- latt_ire,_concernin any measure which has been before them, at which is riot fmiil y disposed of. is when it is presented to him, by the Colonial Secretary, for his assent or dissent.

Ilon. the COLONIAL St:ICltI:I'I‘ARY. The reasonin of the honorable and learned member for Georgetown (l\Ir. Iluvi and) is not in potiit. 'I‘lte close analogy whic e supposes to exist be- tiveeii the Queen and the British Parliament on the one hand and that of the Governor of it Colony and its Legislature on the other, III not real. ’I‘he supposition that it does, is in fact, an absurdity. The honorable and learned member is very fond of laying his con- lllIttlltln'i'll'0piIIl.t)ttI before the House; but they do not always prove that he is infallible in his intorprctatio .

lllr. IIAVILAND ucli opinions, although urged upon the notice _ol_' the House by me, are not crude notio ' are opinioa_s which pass current with a quiiiiited with the laws and usages ofthe British Parliament. The tlf8,.IIl fact, the express and confirmed declarations of the Britis Parliament itsel .

The Hon. the COLONIAL SECRETARY than concluded his observations by saying, that the only way to secure the speedy as- _aage of the Bill into law, was to discharge the Order for carrying it u to the Council; and. to refer it back to the Committee of the whole Ilouse, with the view_of adopting an address to Her Majesty, praying the Royal leave for its euiictiiieut; and he believed such a course_woulil be in accordance with his Exce|leacy's views, and hayp his su port.

the Hon. the SPEAKER then put the question on the motion ofthe Ilun. the 'lreasurer; and the House divided ;

i:as—IIonorablca Messrs. J. Pope. J. Jardine. G. Coles, E. . urtoa; Messrs. Benton, Laird, Davies, Fra- ‘ljliicncilil; lllloonay and Clark. avs—. essrs. ti mer, out orner , ' Mmfpulny’ wighumm’ Md Dani. y Ilavilsnd, Thornton, Yeo, o it was carried in the afliriiiiitive.

Resolved, I‘hat the House will to-morrow, resolve itsclf intoa Cotllnllllee of the whole House, to take the subject matter of the foregoing Resolution into consideration.

WIDNIIDAY, March 24.

_ReiaIveil. That the Ilouse do now resolve itself into a Com. mittee of the whole House. to take into further consideration the Bill referred back.to the Committee ofthe whole House, to require Liiiidlords, or Claimant of Rents, to put the Titles by which they Clflllll. upon record, intho proper Offices of record in this Island, wttli_Ilte view ofadopting an Address to Her Majesty the Queen, praying the Royal leave to be given to the enactment of such a