JAi&iuAnv' 63195;".

1

THE GUARDIAN. CHARLQTTETOWN

PAGE NINE

Final Evidence .Ta.,ken,:in Fishertmeznisu, Loans

following is the official tran- ecript of the evidence taken at the final sitting on Thursday lain, of the Fisherman's Loan'Boerd Com. mission. The Ccananisaioaet. Judge J. 5. Denfiocliee. presided, with Mr. J. 0. c. Campbell. x.c., .. counsel for the Commission.

Mr. Camtpb.-.ll:. -Judge Deg. Rcches, I imderstend that Mr. Keir Clark has a statement to make. . Judge es: We will bet glad to hear Mr. Clerk's state- ment.

Keir Clark (sworn) ;

Mr. Campbell: (

Q-Mr. Clerk. you are" a mem- ber of the Leiislerive Assembly for the Third District of King's. and you live in Montague? A-- That is right.

Mr. Campbell:

Your name has been mentioned in the course of our bearings by Mr. Wilfred Wetter-worth and he said something like this: (I am reading from page 32 of our evid- ence): "Also Joe Campbell and Keir Clark were into my office two days before the election and I said to them 'Gemtlemen, what I do I will do in my oftice'. I also said '1 have no car but I will do all I can from this office.' I had a quantity of cash and liquor, and I think if you ask any of these men here today they will also testify that there was a large quantity of liquor "and" cash be- fore the election.” Now the way that appears in Mr. Waiter-wort'h's evidence, that you and Joe Camp- bell were in his oiifice and that he had a quantity of cuh and ii- quor. it would seem to'connect the two. Have you anything to sayza-bout that Mr. Clai'.k?.' A- Yes. Sir. We. . .

Judge Des1Roehes: Who do you mean by "we"? .

A-My colleague. Joe Campbell and myself. We called on Mr. Watter-worth to canvass him dur- ing'our campaign.

Q-To canvass him? A--Yes.

Q-For a vote? A-Yes. on our regular canvass of the district. Mr. Watterworhh stated that we were there two days before the election. well that is not so. It was earlier in our campaign that we visited Mr. Wattei-worth, I believe it would be about three or four weeks prior to the election on December 11th.

Judrge DesRoches:

Q-What electiion is that? A- December 11, 1947. I took ex- ception to this statement that ap- peared i.n t-he Last enquiry, the statement that you have just read, and I went to see Mr. Wat- fer:-worth on New Year's Day, Jinuary lst.

Mr. Campbell:

Q-dust this week? A-Yes. sir. And I asked him if he meant any implications. if he meant that there was any connection between our visit to his office and the li- quor and cash which he said he had in his possession and he said absolutely not. he didn't mean any implications. 1 was very much concerned about this statement be- cause the two statements were made right together and I asked Mr. Watterwonih if he would clear the matter up. He said that he was just as anxious to clear the matter up as I was. I told him the statement should be sworn to because his evidence was sworn. We 'went to a J..P.. Mr. Robert Clements, and he took Mr. Wai- tenwomth to another room and when he came out he handed me the sworn. statement and I have this statement here today -and would like to present it to the lin- quiry. Mr. Clark then read Mr. Wetter-worth's sworn statement which reads as follows:

"I, - Wil-fred Watterworth. of Montague, make the following statement under oath."

Mr.;Ca-mpbel-1: What date i.s,on that statement? ' I

A-First day of January, 951.

(Mr. Clark continues reedi Mr. Wat1erworth's -statement); "In connection with the evidence I Rave at the Fiehennen's Loan Board Enquiry at Montague on December 28, 1950. I wish to clear

up my impression which might

-:74

Tire.) Neighbors

. , , q 9

K . ..

be drawn: from my Itlteaaenta and state further as follows:

"I. That there-, was lbsoluiely no connection between my , two statements regarding

"(c) The visit of Joseph Camp- bell and Keir Clark to my office;

"(b) The statement which fol- lowed regarding cash and liquor.

".l'he visit of these two men I considered to be madeuwith the regular curves: of their political district.

"2. That at no time in my life didsl ever have any dealings in regard to fisher-me 'a loans with Mr. Clark or asked him to sign any papers in connection with same.

"3. That at notime during the time of the 1947 election campaign had I any den with Keir Clark or Joseph amlibcil wiu liquor or cash."

”(Signed) Wilfred Waiter-worth.

"Sworn before me this first day of January. 1951. . '

(Signed) R. K. Clements, J.P."

Canrpbell'

. Q-Did Wetter-worth -tell you substantially what is in that al- fidavit, I mean in the course oi your conversation with him did he tell you these things? A-l read this statement to him and he said he would have no hesitation in signing the statement.

Mr. Campbell: So this statemem might be tendered just as evidence of the conversation that took place between you and Watter-worth.

Judge DesRodhes: I wonder where Mr. Wa-ttenworih is today?

Mr. Camgfoellz He is not avail- able. Judge Desnoches.

Mr. Campbell:

Q-Have you anything further to say? I

A-Yes. sir. There was some evidence given earlier of which I have no record at the moment but it would indicate that I was at the Fisherman's Loan Board office prior to the election. I would like to make a statement as to what I was doing there. I was in the Provincial Building one day about three weeks before the election of 1047 and Mr. William Agnew came up to the office of the Deputy -Minister of Public Works ofifice where lavas and told me that I was wanted in the Fish- ermenls Loan Board office. I went to the office and Mr. Saville was there. Mr. Seville said that since I was a business men of Montague that he wanted to ask me some questions concerning applications which he had for Fisher-men's Loans from people in Montague. I read over some of the applications with Mr. Saviile and he asked me several questions. I told him that I didn't think that any of the applicants were very good credit risks. Mr. Saavi-I-le said that the purpose of the Fishermen! Loans was to reihntbilitate veterans and needy fishermen and that if ya: necessary to take some credit risks. There was one application 1 ob- jected to because the men was a farmer; Mr. Seville looked at the application and said that it stated that the man owned no land. He asked me if the man was ii. veteran and Iisaid ”yes" and Mr. Seville stated that he would be good to all war veterans. I left Mr. Snville's obfice. went hompthat day - I was a bit suspicious about the loans in general -- so I made some enquiries about the loans around Montlgue and what I learned was not cry reassuring. Accordingly. a c is of days (later. I came to Ch iotitetown to see Mr. Seville an told him that I found out some things about the loan: but he said that some of them had already been passed.-I warned him about any loans involvinl Mr- Wat-ierworith'as agent because I was suspicious of all the loans and what Ihad heard in lMontague made me moreriispicioiis.

Game you referring to loans where Mr. Watterworth was con- cerned?

A-Yes. About the same time. knowing that Dr. Grunt had sign- ed some loan, papers. I made it my ' iness to go and see Dr. Grant. I warned Dr. Grant much the same way as Mr. Seville. told him what. I. had heard and told him I was lumicious of those loans. The Doctor said if 1

Ir George Clark . 'lr

C

thought there was anything wrong with .(:be loans that he would sign a more papers and he said that he did not like the idea of Wu- fred Wattei-worth looking for all those loans for these men before n election. I may say in regard to Mr. Seville that subsequent to my visit to his office he told me that beccuee of the information he got from me that he had turn- ed dowii several of the loans. I met. Dr. Grant a. few days after I had warned him about these loans and he told me that he was asked to sign more paper: and that he had refused. A few days later than that, still prior to the election. Dr. Grant told me that he went into Charlottetown on the train. and that on the train he

5

ed hian to sign more papers. He said that he refused to sign the papers. Now when I had gone back to warn Mr. Seville he men- tioned that day that he was go- ing to be very busy with his own campaign and did not intend to put throuui any more loans prior to the election. I left rnotters un- til after the election and two days afterwards, having been elected myself. 1 considered it my duty to again go to the Fisher- men's ”LcIn Board office. I can't recall whether Mr. Savi-lle was there but one Secretary was there. at any rate I warned the Secre- tary of the. Fisher-.men's Loan Board office at the time and I warned Mr. Saviile either that day or very shortly afterwards. Hludge Desltochesz I Q-You warned Mr. Saville af- ter the election? A-Yes. Q-Arbaut the loans? A-Yea. Mr. Campbell:

Q-Watterwortih loans? A-Yes. I told him that I had this matter brought up to me by several of our electors, prior to the elec- tion, and some of them condemn- ed the Government for having Waite-rworth handling these loans and on this account I asked Mr. Saville to discontinue all further loans where Mr. Watterworth was involved as Agent.

Q-When you went to see Wat- terworiih, prior to the , election. and he said he had no car but he would do all he could, I presume that meanit that he would further your election? Can you tell us what did happen that time and elaborate on what Mr. Wetter- worth told you?

A-when Mr. Campbell and I went to see. Mr. Watterworth he received us very kindly. How- ever. he stated that although he would like to help us that he couldn't because he was under what I would call at state of duress at the time . . . I restraint of his personal freedom on account of his relations at tihat'tirne with a certain la-wyer.. He stated that his lawyer was very much opposed to Mr. Campbell and I being elected. Q-J-its lawyer in connection with his business? A-Yes. He saigl that he faced financial ruin because his family was attempt- ing to take money out of the cold storage. He said that he was greatly be-holdiing to his lawyer because of this matter and could not do anything to further our election in the open. Vi

Q--whee did he mean by that? A-That he could not go out and work for us b ause it: would comeito the notice of his lawyer. Q-That was the 1947 election? A-Yea.

Q-Then he told you before that elegtion that he could not go out openly and work for you because of his connection with his law- yer. And Mr. Watterworiah said he would do all he could from his office. now what did he mean by

that? A-We'll he meant he would help us t apart from any- thing thet wou come to the at-

tention of his lawyer. Q-And he said that he could not do anything openly to held) IS-

sist in your election? A-The-t is correct.

Q-'Anyt.-hing further? A-Noth- in further.

Judage Desikocihes: I suppose that this is in answer to some of the matters which have been brought to the attention of the Commis- sion from time to time?

Mr. Campbell: It would appear to tie in some of the loose ends. Judige Desikoohesz Mr. Wetter- worth has brought Mr. Keir Clark's name into this enquiry himself. At the very last hearing be men- tioned Mr. Clark's name: and these matters have been brought up by several witnesses. so I sup- pose the evidence just submitted is in order?

Mr. Campbell: I don't think (there is any question about that. Judge Dealloches. '

, 'I'.here were some matters. and there may be some further mat- ters that we want from Mrs. Hig- son. but we could not anticipate them in advance. however. we would like Mrs. Kathleen Ifigson to take the stand.

Mrl. Kathleen llirsvn (sworn)

Mr. Cempber. .. .. Q-Mrs. Higson, . its worth has said that he had thir- teen ispplicstions at one time signed by Dr. Grant and also oth- er an-iliicationa at other times. Now Dr. Grant. on inquiry. has said that hcvhed only signed six oraeven. Cenyoutellua how many loam went through with Dr. Gum's endorsement? A - From our records. as far as I can find out. between six or seven. not more than seven. "d-six or men loena went through on "his? uegaansumdaiiont

w fig IQ” . . azfiiagg : .. . . w, ,mmNm.

5

met Wetter-wor-tih who again Isk- .

' .--Yea. air.

A-'1.'lut'a right.

Q- re was another nutter which Mr. Watterwortb brought up when he said that the loans made during election year. 1047. were out of all proportion to ion; made in other years. Now I have here a statement which you have provided - was this s cement made up from your records? A- Yea. I went throuih our vouchers. Q--Now in each case here the number repre is the approxi- mate number? -That is right. Q-The marginal error would be only two or three? A-Yes. Q-Now the number of loans made during 1946? A-There were 157 individual loans. ' ' Q-In 1941p-1948? A -There were 152. -

Q-In I947-1948? A-25 .

Q--In 1048-1949? A-422. Q-These figures are from your official records? A-Yes.

Q-I asked Mrs. I-Iigson to get I complete picture of the loans from 1940-1949. New up to 1941, Mrs. 1-Iigson. I believe the loans were from 340 to 375? A-That's righ-t.

Q-aAnd then from 1942-1945 the loans went up in amount to C150 and 8200? A-Yes.

Q-And from 1040-1949 the loans went up to saoor A-Yea. YQ-Each individual loan? A -

es. .

Q-In 1947 the 'tota.1 individual loans were? A-325,766.51. Q--And in 1948 the individual loans were? . A-d3'l.'12B.30.

Q--In 1949 the individual loans were? A-646,570.73.

Q-And you also have on this sheet the total loans inclifiiing organizations and buildings? A- Yes.

Q-Then for 1947 the total is?

A-555,938.46.

Q-For 1948? A-356,456.33.

Q-For 1949? A-360,716.30.

Q-That would bar after the jump up to the S300 loan? A-Yes.

Q-Prior to that the loans were smaller? A-Yes.

Q-Was this record made up from your official books?” A - From the auditor's statement.

Q-You recall tihe thousand dolp lat cheque that Wetter-worth got that time? A-Yes.

Q.-Can you tell us, without looking at your records. what that was made up of? A-As far as 1 can recall they were five differ- ent loans at 3200 each,

Q-And the names? A-No. I can't tell you that.

Judge DesrRoches: The names are what I am interested in.

Mr. Camipibell: Those could be had, Mrs. Higson-'.' A-Yes, quite

easily.

Q--Ls that cheque still out- standing? A-No. it was cashed, we have (fie cancelled cheque in our office.

Q-Those are still loans on your books? A-Yes. I can't tell you whether any of the. individuals have paid anything on any of them without looking at my re- cords.

Judge! Deslioches: These loans that made up the 31000 cheque are still outstanding loans? Yes.

Q--.And'hsve not been paid to date? .A-No. certainly not in full.

Mr. Carrspibell: But you can find that out for us? A-Yes.

Judge Deslloches; Wihet I am interested in is the recommenda- tions made for these loans? A-- Yes. I can get that information for you too.

Q-Another matter is. was a note taken in connection with these loans whether they were for relief or not? A-A chugue can- not be issued without" a note to cover.

Mr. -Campbell:

Q-The storm relief for 1938. would that go through your of- fiace? A-Yea. but we did not take notes for that.

Q-'-That wds separate? A-Yes.

Q-No notes were taken at that time? A-'Ihey were handled in a different manner.

Judge Deslloches: On all other occasions notes were taken? A- Yes.

Mr. Campbell: Even for 310. 840 or 3300? A-Yespnotes to cover all.

Judge Desllochcst What pro- portion of those loans are con- sidered paid?

Mr. Campbell: Could you give us any idea on that. Mrs. I-Iigson? There is about 3250.000 outstand- ing on these loans. cen you give us any idea yourself what part of that is collected? A-IL would be only guess work if I did. I would have to refer to our records to give you an accurate account.

Q-(Mr. Campbell has not gone around tirrough the country 10 make I. survey yet? A--No. but he will be making I survey.

Q-Could you any whether half of the 9250.000 was collected? A- I can give you an idea of what we take in on old loans-around 320.000 within the last two or three years.

Q.aat you get that by gasoline

rebates? A-Yea. "”rQu'Wefl-rtlitt means that you collected a little less than 10

per cent I year? A-Yes.

Judge Desaoohur

Q-How lohg would itfake you to get this information for us. lilra. Higsmf A-(A short time.

(Judge Deainocbes then adjourn- ed the Court for I abort recess in order that Mrs. Iiigaon could ob- tain the information on these

loans.) Mrxcaangsbellz - Q-Now then the question was about tlltthoulend dollar cheque dated Novearher D. 1911? Ap-Yes. Q-What loans did it cover? What are the names of the people -you say there were five 3200 loans? A-Yea. he names of the five pecole ere: ha is Vuuo. Archie Higginisotfiemr loyd Hig- gtnuozharn. Walter J. Batchllder an-:1 Jaanea Annie. and the amount of the loan in uoisicaco is 0100. . Q-Those werepatd by I the- que to Wattemoi-in for 81000? A Q-(And

out dseque was is ed? A-Yea. - Q-Now than how much? has

been paid on anyof these loans and by whom? A-(Lloyd Higgin-

bothem paid MUD, rebate for the

.

App.

While there appears to be no im- mediate prospect of obtaining ade- quate facilitlea for a Provincial museum and archives. owing to un- settled worid conditions, continued interest is being shbwn in the pro- ject. uni it has been suggested that if fire-poof rtorage accommodation. could be obtained. collection of historic materials could be under. taken in the near future.

The exhibition sponsored by the I. O. D. E. in Charlottetown in Nov- ember. 1949. created a great deal of public interest. A; it was the first. of its kind to be held here for many years. the exhibits were neces- sarily incomplete. but the range and variety of the objects shown was a surprise to many visitors. These included Indian heads, tea caddies, snuff boxes, fans of tortoise- sheil and ivory. tatting shuttles, stamp cases. dolls and dolls' dresses, shoe horns, beaded slipper bags. candlesticks and snufflers. spectac- les. hand hammered copper bowls and other utensils. needle point work of various kinds, postage scales. old newspapers, elmanacs and books. including an old Gaelic Bible; old locks and keys. knitted and patch- work quilts, prunella boots. pattens. hot water urns. prayer books, milk- ing stools, leather fire buckets, old prints. photos. Paintings. etchings and maps; c-ld coinsv and paper money issued by Island banks: pewter ware, miniatures, card cases. lockets. apmns, shawls and shawl pins, samplers. marriage tok- ens. book marks. sextants. skates. brass sanders (for drying inked pages). powder horns. hair wreaths. beaded footstools. wool cardcrs. spinning wheels, candle moulds. bonnets. bristles and other numer- ous articles of domestic use. total- ling several hundred individual items.

Among the exhibits of special in- terest shown last November were -the following, with the names of the exhibitors in brackets:

Muzzle loader. single barreiied. used in the American Revolution. brought to P. E. Island by United Empire Loyallsts. (John Cairns. Dunstaffnage.) I

last irwo years. Archie Higgin- hotham paid sl0.00 -- his rebate for last year. -

Q-None of the others paid any? A-No.

Q-W-hose recoinvmendation were these applications passed on? Are they all the same? A-Yes.

have

the same person? A-I-Yes.

Q-(By whom. Mrs. Higson? A -Wilfred Watterworth.

Judge DusiRoches: You say that these five applications from Vuz- zo, Archie Higginibotrham, Lloyd Higginibothaim, Batohildei- and Ans- tie were all recommended by wet- terworth? A-Yes. sir.

-Q--And that is the S1000 che- que in question? A-Yes.

Q-(Dr. Grant's name does not appear on any of these applica- tions that make up the 31000? A -No.

Mr. Campbell:

Q--Mrs. Higson. have you any- thing further you would like to say in connection with this en- quiry other than what you said the last time you appeared and today? A-No, sir. I have never- had any other trou-ble since I came into the Fis'hermen's Loan Board Office.