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.1! =_".'.~ a I ma.

. ..._.._\. _ __ _

11 l;

PAGE TEN

Quotes Page After Page From

Hansard Showing Inconsistency Qf Government Attitude And

li/Ioves Vote Of For Failure To

Non-Confidence Implement Em-

p10 yment Pledges.

'11 l

Hon. RB. Bennett. -r, 11.1 the House of 2, 11111-1111: Budget

from Monday's

--.»= there has . . the Llnitt-t‘. have enjoyed

c1‘.

:1 (Janutili “n; duty 11» _ :.Wi..itis the . 11 1t inrulis anything-

11-1- an inquiry ‘ :1 report. from 11in accord- (in found by r we uiped Ls i1. be- oi tariff dep-artnieiits - cuy external af- wwliave thought. x-uH. be 1:11" better able 1 1.115,: matter than the l be? Is that the res.- is at. the rrzisoii that the cixilisiraii has so endeav- the some mean- . language that he : wtLl-kiiown ver- _. arc-ction?‘ Here . '11 same thing express- . ie old agreement, but. a "llmOli 111.11. the matter shall go board. Here you . ' the agree- ..1 i111» 1_i1.11»..d Slates for 1'. 1 1 :.1e tariff board. But 1:11 what. have we? 1c: The prousioii in

__rj.

€'."‘ff".f""n-1i—.-v

‘ 1.1.1» s ‘i741: agreement. ls

ht 1t says, the if there is

: "iffasoperated by lie Minister of Na-

V Il-lley) 011 cucum-

.1~r-.~,-;-1-1 r

;t_ile towelutitiute tliat-.

... be

Mr. King Again

xvluit. the. Prime

tnost: days. I the utterances of ‘o Llfill the Prime {Viln- ineinbers of the .- as the Minister

11- _ , whore strong d vunrintion will al- . FlPIi; ‘llns i5 .. l‘ .1 .\lii1i.‘;'1fl' stud:

l\1. spmtltmr, I need not. =11 again to the fact is not. the. people of arr- thought; of in r121. it lS United King,- v.‘:.o are to have

before the have not the

.1l' , ,1 ’ 1'11 l0 HD1798!‘ . Why

:.- oi (71111111111 and the con- irs 11f Canada the. riizht. to ap-

pr- ...v1

1111-11 ilw. hoard‘! May I

' t lnute 111 this coiuiec- m1p.'1i":111t. clause in

1.1 . -t. as it now

m...‘ is ll'lil. only those

ﬁre M1 0.11m‘. before the

f hoowl i.‘ ill/ii the Prime Miti-

. to 11:1ve placed before

11f‘ 1'1 1»l\\' that. if my hon. is 111 ‘has 111112. with site- t r~11111’:1\1111i' he is very . l rlt» not believe uu/nt. of (inunda- x1111‘; '1 ('0 not. ht‘- ; 11::r‘i:1i111-i1t_ of Can-

." - 1o l.iil'l‘f‘ilt’lt‘l' to any rd ‘P211111 is to be rc- .1 _11111111.11 tribunal tlic

341'. Dar-rung: Oh, no; the gov-

lilgllrllf. of (Qllllﬂflfi. l "r. Ilimtwinifs Mistake

Mr. Bennett: The minister is a v11» intrlligent; gentleman, but at ' he makes the fatal mistake Slllfllllg i1 knowledge of the Interpretation of statutes which he "tiers not. persess. 'l'he language is this

"'1" c. gVY-‘Pfllillfllll of Canada un- dcrtzike as regards goods tlic growth, prnduee or manufacture of the United Kingdom other than them emnuerwtcti in schedule IV that, under the British preferen- tial i."l‘lll. nn new protective duty shall 11c imposed and no existing protwtlvo duty increased except tiller an inquiry at which United Kine-loin producers shall enjoy full Iigliti. of audience."

Mr. Dunning: That is it. Mr. Bennett: The old section walfilil": 4 <

“liq. .\l.1ic'~ty's government in Canada undertake that no exist.-

In the old ‘

the turiif in Can-i

I a. . 111 l)" 01111 re-pcct to any‘ . joniuliutiity’ \\l1;1:t-vcr."

Mr. Duniiiiigi: ‘that is the a/holc pen-it.

1W1". Bonnet‘; Yes. Well then. the iron. pt-ntfrnuui might cx- pliin 1.1111: he 11.11; tit-trad that an inquiry; 11'. wi 11 the United King- dom 1irocliic "- to enjoy full ﬁght‘. of a‘ - i1". to (iciermine theZc QKICKKUOH», rather than the Inﬁll‘ lmartl.

IUnited Kingdom goods except af- ter an lllfllilly and the receipt of a report. from the tariff board, and in accordance with the lliCts as found by that body.

Mr. Dunning: Thai: is it.

Mr. Bennett: There is the dis- tinction without the tiifierencc.

Afr. Dunning: A very important one.

Mr. Bennett: Yes. but here is the

amazing tion, in view of i ' let the support- 1 lion. gentleman ‘ (Air. afacizenri-s Klng1 115L911 to l 111a: t “What does that. mean, Mr. ' Speal-:cr? It means" that, the tariff

I 11011111 of Canada is to be moved i into action at; the instance not of , (Ianadi- 11s, not of consumers who i ate tjlgcttitl by our tariffs, not. of any asses in this country, but at the xinstahce 0i‘ the British gov- eminent. to have a. govemnietit. of another part of the empire say ivhcn our tariff inachineijv is to be put, into motion wvhere it relates to mat- ters pertaining to the tariff board. Thai. comes back t0 the old ques- tion as to haw far we want; the affairs of this country interfered with by the, governments of the‘ other parts of the empire. I ven- ture to say that if we are looking for trouble that is the best. direc- tion in which to seek it. If we 8P!‘- Koing to put upon the British gpvcrnineitt the onus of moving’ our tariff board into action, and put upon our own government. the onus of having its hoard take up investigations whenever the B1}. fish government wirli to have nn inquiry made, ii. seems to ine we are going out of our way to make iliffirttlties between the govern- ments of the two countries and between the two,countrics them- selves.“

Dr. Dunning: He was prophet.

a true

More Commissions?

Mr. Bennett: We are to have another inquiry like the Turgcon: commission. with Mr. McRuer, at $150 rt day and expenses, reading free trade pamphlets. Is that the idea?

So that is the story up to that point. ‘Then we come to article 7 of the 110w agreement:

“The government. of Canada un- dertake that. goods _the growth. produce or miniufticturc of the United Kingdom etiunteraterl it‘. schedule IV. when not of a class or kind made in Canada and when subject to duties of customs on importation into Canada, shall. when conveyed without; tranship- merit front any part. of the Dri- tish Empire enjoying the benefits of the British preferential tariff into a sea, lake or river port. of Canada. enjoy the benefit of pre- ferentlztl tariff tnarpins which, in the case of any such goods, shall not; be less than the ziifference ‘oc- tween the rate of ditty provided for in this agreement and the rntc of duty now levied upon like goods the growth, produce or manufacture of any foreign coun- try, provided however that. if the (luty on‘ forelen goods becomes less than such preferential tariff mar- gin, no duty shall be levied on the lzke goods of Unitetiliingtloiti ori- gin."

Then, article R:

"The government of Canada 11n- riertake in respect of the goods the growth, produce or manufacture of the United Kingdom enumerat- -ed in schedule V appended hereto that the difference between the. f rates of duties of customs on such goods on importation into Can- tida, when conveyed without. trans- slupmcnt from any part of the British Empire enjoying the bene- fits of the British preferential tariff into a sea, lake or river port of Canada, and the rates upon similar goods the growth, produce or manufacture of any foreign country shall not. be less than the margins set out in that: schedule."

Respect For iurllamcnt

finder the old agreement, article 0, "fits Majesty's government in Canada. will invite parliament." You see. the late government. were more respectful towards parlia- ment. They did not know they hnd a certain, solid majority. The government of Canadzts undertak- ing under thts present article i5 without; reference to parliament, but the old agreement recited:

"His Majesty's government in Canada. will invite parliament to pass the legislation necessary t/o substitute for the duties of cus- toms now lcvlnble on the goods specified in schedule E the duties shown in that schedule, provided that. nothing in this article shall preclude His Majesty's government in Canada from reducing the duties specified in the said sche- dule so long as the margin oi Bri- tish preference shown in that sche- dule is preserved or from increas- ing the rates under the inter- mediate or ecncral tariff set out in the said schedule."

ﬁdﬂﬂlillhbﬁil D

lqhuodcmnumlllllil

' placed on the free list

In other words we are.

Bennett Turns Spotlight On The Dunning Budget t With Devastatinggisulr

with respect to the articles that. were bound the British govern- ment. had accorded its consent without any difficulty, and I P01nted out further that: with re- spect to the items mentioned here we put them on the free 11st; and when the bill is in committee we will mention the articles that." were between 1932 and i935.

"All Important"

Lei; me refer now to the lan- guage of the present Prime Minis- ter at. page 281 of Iiansard of 1932.

“The feature that is all im- portant for this parliament to con- sider is whether it is going to adopt the principle of allowing one government to say what the tariff of Canada must be for a. given- period of time irrespective of what the wishes of the electorate may be. Whether we are to be bound for a term of years to the high tariff rates which a government that may be in office one day and out of office shortly after, may fix. That is the most serious tea‘- turc of all. When we consider; that this is an effort to raise tariffs not only so far as Canada is concerned but so far as other parts ef the British Empire are con- cerned against the rest of the ivorld, this iron clad arranucnient of high tariffs existing around the British Empire for a period of years becomes a rather serious lli- I tematlonal as well as national problem."

ls there any change? (lhanges in numbers of items, but. not in principle. Ii’ you have five articles you have the number, and thej right. hon. gentleman suid the tliiii ‘ to remember was the prlnciplej that. underlies it. The principle is. embedded in these documents; for F here is the old. agreement, article 9.

“His Majesty's government in Canada. will invite parliament to p885 the legislation necessary to substitute for the duties of cus- toms now leviable on_ the goods specified in schedule E the duties shown in that schedule . . . . .."

As I point out, this was, as we said at. the time, an experiment. and as it; became clear from time to time that. certain items were not required, reductions were made or they lei. us deal with them as we pleased, on consent.

Mr. Dunning: With respect to guaranteed margins?

Mr. Bennett: Certainly, when England could not; supply. some

articles for instance came up dur- ing those years ivhich England. could not supply at. all.

Mr. Dunning: One or two cases.

Mr. Bennett: Well, one or two is, sufficient for the principle involv- ed. WllPXIEVEI‘ it was found neces- sary they always met olir offers. And the right. hon. gentleman pointed out. that. the essential ques- tion to consider is the principle in- violved.

Mr. Mackenzie King: The prin- ciple involved at the time was the question of duration. In other words my right. lion. friend bound his successors; we bound ourselves but. left our successors frcc.

The Treaty Period

Mr. Bennett: The right ‘hen. gentleman might not. say with cer- tainty that. he bound even litm- self. A period of time of three years is not materially different from five years.

Ml‘. Mackenzie King: But it is.

Mi'. Bennett: The right. hon. gentleman made some point about that. He. approvctl of the tobacco item, ivhicli lie had made, which was a ten year agreement, and which he did not desire to have changed. The. fact. that the term is three or five years I do n21. consider to he of great intporl- unce having regard to the iact that the government; of xvhich he was the head made a bargain with the West. Indies for ten years and bound us so that we were not able to deal with the West, Indies by reason of that agreement. And I pointed out. others in which tho same thing was done. So it is not a question of time; it is a ques-

tion of the essential principle, and the principle is ntanifcsted as well by five or six items as by fifteen or twenty.

I have dealt with articles 7 and

8. Article 13 of the new agreement is one to which considerable im- portance has been attached. The two agreements are substantially the same in that regard. The man- dated territories I will take as read-- ..,.the government. of Canada shall not be bound to continue to accord any preferences to any colony or protectorate...

Here is what. the old agreement said, article 20:

"Nothing in this agreement shall prejudice or diminish any of the benefits enjoyed by any of the parties thereto under the Canada- West Indies trade agreement dat- ed Juiy 6, 1925."

The new agreement and the old are identical in meaning, a]- though there has been a change of words. It must. have required all the genius that the govern. ment could import to be able to utilize these words in u different. way by transposition so as to make them fit. in differently from the way they were in the old agreement and still mean the same thing.

Mr. Dunning: The other party to the agreement had something to say.

Mr. Bennett: Quite. but. not in the language used here. Now, let. us see. Ii. is not as though it. end- ed there. One would have thoiurlit that the present Prime Minister world inn

THE CH. n-LOTTETOWN

he accepted it. Let us look at Hansel-d. page 2'17:

bet. us consider the next article.

And then he deals with the colonies. and continues:

"I have not time to g0 into that matter at the moment, but I in- vite the attention of the house to the fact that here is a new de. pziriiirc with respect to the whole matter of taxation of colonies and dependencies. Under 't.hlii agree- ment the governments are mak- ing. so far as the countries of the rest of the world are concerned, a closed preserve of’ the depen- dencies and the colonies. Hereto- fore they have been free to traae with these colonies and depend- encies. We on this continent as colonies, sought. for years to get freedom of trade, and not; to have the government of Britain impose duties for us. Under this agree- ment, however, we in this parlia- ment who have fiscal freedom in these matters, are to sunction a, course which states that. whether they wish it: or not, these depend- encies and colonies in order to provide preferences to other part-s of the empire must have certain duties against the rest of the world imposed upon them. There is another principle which I do not believe we in this parlia- meni. ought to support for one minute."

And already several days have passed.

"I shall not touch the larger is- sues raised, but ii: raises fitrther far-reaching questions when we consider what. other countries of the world are likely to think, those countries which are not. only being shut out. of the markets of the British dominions and Great Britain herself, but shut out. of the great colonial empire as well, in consequence of the agreements. Those are matters which may well be very carefully considered."

‘Phat was the attitude of the then leader of the oppgsitign _ that not for one minute should parliament consider it; and now it is embodied in the new agreement ivliieh he asks his followers to ac- cept and act uponi.

Article l7

Article 17 in’ the new agree- ment. is important in connection with the question of time. I re- serve iny observations in answer to that. until we come to the agreement itself. But article 17 reads:

"The agreement will come into force on a date to be: mutually agreed between the two govern- menls. 0n the coming into force of the present agreement, the agreement. concluded ‘between thei two governments at Ottawa on August. 20, 1932, shall cease to have effect. Pending the coming into force oi’ the present e- inent, the two governments will apply its provisions as far as may be possible and will consult to- gether with regard to the dates oir witich particular provisions of the 1932 agreement ‘shall be deemed to have been replaced by provisions of the present agreement. ‘The agreement will remain in force until August 20, 1040. Unless six months before August 20, 1940, notice of termination shall have been given by either government to the other, the agreement will rennnin in force until the expiry of six gnonths from the date on which a notice of termination is given."

What. does the Prime Minister mean by suggesting that. this is a three year agreement, if the agree- ment is in perpetuity unless no- tlce of termination is given by either party? It is an agreement which continues, and the ar- rangement with respect to the old agreement and with respect to the new will be clearly seen when you contrast tho two articles. Arlécle 22 of the old agreement rea :

“This agreeme1it....ls to be re- garded as coming 'int.o effect as from the date hereof lsubject to the necessary leghlative or other action being taken us soon as may b: practic- able hereafteim It. shall remain in force for a period of five years, und i1‘ not. (lenotuiczed six months before the end of that. period shall continue in force thereafter until it date six months after notice of denunciation has been given by either party."

And it. continued to be iii force, just us the new one will, for a. period of years in the absence of notice to the contrary -- six months‘ notice before its termina- tion. so that as far as this agree- inent is concerned it; continued m effect. until such time as notice was given for its termination.

There are other proihsions of the agreement. to which I might “Dilly the deadly 1inrallel, but. I desire now only to make a. few observations with respect to one or two matters which I consider of paramount importance before we discuss the matter in detail in committee. The agreement makes some reductions in duties. When we get into committee I shall point out that. many of them are 2 1-2 per cent., some 5 per cent., some 10 per cent., and of course one of them at. least. a 50 per cent. re- duction. But. there are two or three outstanding items to which attention should be directed at once.

Strip Steel

One affects steel. I shall not go into tho details except to point out. that this government. has bound with respect to preference strip steel. To my surprise I learned this fall when I was away from Canada that there is no strip steel for the manufacture of automobile bodies produced any- where outside of the United States -I mean for the type o: gum- mobile body that. we make on this continent. It is true that they will do it in Australia shortly. We cau- not. secure it except from the United States. and if the prices of automobiles are at a high level in this country it is only fair to say that they will be reduced if the dies are brought here and the botkes present into shape from

bvtmelentorhzgourmnlknb mo.

GUARDIAN

But. we are denied that. This is an item in which it has been declared that although we con- not buy from Great Britain strip steel for the manufacture of auto‘- mobile bodies, because they do not produce it-though they are build- ing a mill-we in Canada cannot get strip steel from the United States because, notwithstanding the fact. that they cannot supply it. in England, we have agreed to maln- tain that level of duty.

I confess, Mr. Speaker. that when I found myself in Australia last fall it ,was news to me to learn that the only place in which that. particular kind of strip steel was produced was the United States. I

‘thought. of course, that was obtain-

able in EnglantLbutI found that. not so, though in southern England, near Swansea, Wales, they are now erecting a mill in which strip steel of the type and kind and with the characteristics necessary for the manufacture of automobile bodies will be produced. I saw that. steel imported into Australia. though shortly they will produce ii; there themselves. I saw the (its set up; I saw the presses operate. But we in Canada. now will have to pay a. duty on that. strip steel or bring in the bodies already pressed and shaped, thereby los- lng that much employment. I confess that I am quite unable to appreciate that point.

I shall reserve the right to dis- cuss the steel items further in com- mittee, because there are certain large principles involved, one of them being that. to set. up a. duty and prevent the free importation of a commodity that ls essential for the reduction of the price of the finished article. during the per- iod necessary for the construction of a mill, is new as far as I know. Formerly we had a provision that the duty would apply when and so soon as the Canadian mill was able to supply the requirements of the people. -

The Woolen Industry

Let us come now to the ques- tion of woollens. The hon. mem- ber for Ontario (Mr. Moore) was once the tariff board. He has written more than one book, and his books are always thought- provoking. In one of his books he indicated that. twice the parlia- ment. of Canada had destroyed the woollen industry of this country, and he gave the years. I looked the matter up when I read this book. because itwas o! some importance to realize what. was the situation when we had to deal with the matter in 1930. It will be recall- ed that in I930 we imposed high duties on woollen goods, including a specific duty. in order that. we might. be able to rehabilitate the woollen industry of this country. At. this moment I am not going to deal with the matter in detail; I am only going to point out that. the woollen industry is scattered over Ontario and Quebec, in small towns and villages, and that sub- stantial numbers of people are employed. The textile industry as a whole employs very large numbers of people, some sixty 01' seventythousand or more. In- deed I believe the woollen indus- try employs about sixty-three thousand people, though I may be ‘wrong in that figure.

What. is the position with rc- speet. tio the woollen industry? It is in this position. that if it can get a certain proportion of the business it. can remain solvent; if it cannot get. s. certain proportion of the business it. cannot remain solvent. Last year, under the old agreement, we gave England forty per cent. of our woollen business and the Canadian producer had a. little less than sixty per cent. There were some woollens that. came from France, Czechoslovakia. and other countries, but. broadly speaking Canadians had between fifty-five and sixty per cent. of the business while Great Britain had forty per cent. So our wool- len industry continued to oper- ate. It. is in evidence that they did not make any large sums of money. Knitted goods stood in the same position, and hosiery as well. I recall that Bit Robert Borden once said that. a. woollen factory in Canada was as great an asset to the British Elmpire as a woollen mill in Yorkshire. and I have always thought that was s. sound principle. Certainly it is a

greater asset. to the Dominion of

Canada. If. as seems likely, the

effect of these new arrangements

will be to lessen the percentage of business that Canadian mills will do in Canada to the extent of, say, ten per cent... then they cannot. continue to function. Of course that is almost axiomatic, having regard to existing economic condi- tions throughout the world. It is quite clear that you must have volume in order to be able in manufacture economically and ef- ficiently, and a volume of sixty per cent., of the available Can- adian business enabled our wooi- len industry, to use the colloquial language of the street, to get by. If you reduce it to fifty per cent they cannot get by. Is that fair, or does England expect us to put. ourselves in that poaiﬂon?

I am not one of thou who are entirely ignorant of this mutter. Mr. Speaker, for I had to do ‘with the negotiation of the agreement of 1932. The position I took then which I still think is a sound position, was that if an industry was operating in Canada efficient- ly and successfully I could not create competition that. would destroy it. Rlghtly or wrongly that was the position we book. My right. hon. friend has expressed deep concern over what. he calls the world situation. I am con- oemed about the world situation also. but. it. seems to me that. the world situation in secondary to the situation in my own country. That. is the position. And that was why the provisions of the agree- ment of i032 read as they did. Woollens, knitted good: and hosi- ery are items which I think it. will be found in committee are uri- ously menaoed by the provlclone of the new agreement.

Aumiuuiiuunl $3. III 1 l II MUN 1

"market while the other forty per

placed u Hubbard my ap- preciation of what I regarded as the sheep industry. 1 never reai~ ized how great. the sheep indus- try miibt. become in a country until I was in Australia. In the twelve months preceding June S0 of last. year Australia did an ex- port business of $122,000,000 oi which 261,000,000, or just half. came from sheep. They have 112,- 000,000 sheep in Australia, and they sell practically one-third of the world's merino. 'I‘hey have de- veloped that business to the point. where their wool. of course, is the standard of the world. 1n South Africa. I found they had many mil- lions of sheep, I think about thirty million, and in their laboratories they are developing the quality of their wool until it seems to ma the time is not far distant when they will become severe competitors with Australia in the matter of quality. There for the first-tune I saw the artificial wool that has been developed by Italy, and 1 realized just how insignificant and inferior it. was as compared with the real article, for the purposes for which wool is used.

In this country we ‘are in a northern climate, and to me the develo it. of a. woollen indus- try would seem to be important. Twice we have destroyed that in- dustry“ as the hon. member for Ontario pointed out in his book. giving the dates when this lup- peried. We have again placed that industry on its feet. by securing to it. sixty per cent. of our domestic

cent., as I say, broadly speaking has gone to Great Britain. Our imports of textiles from Great Britain made up one-third of our entire imports from that country last. year.

Mr. Dunning: That was all tex- tiles, not only woolJens.

Mr. Bennett: Quite so: that is what I said. Under those cir- cumstmoes I do invite the atten- tion of the house to a. careful con- sideration of the items concem- ing woollens, knitted goods and hosiery. .

Vegetable Oils

There is one other article which I think is important, having to do with vegetable oils. I am not go- ing to labour the matter at the, moment, but. in the agreement we made in 1932 we bound that article at: ten per cent. Long be- fore we left. office, diowever. it became painfully apparent that changed world conditions had created 1a situation which required the closets examination and iri- vestlgation; for we have been im- porting into this country tremen- dous qumtities of vegetable oils, and the market we had to the south of us with respect to animal oils has gone. The United States have placed an excise tax against the importation of our animal fats, so that. we are no longer able to utilize that. market for the sale of our surplus products. The lin- portation into Canada of vegetable oils has assumed a mokhltlldﬁ 0! which I had no idea until I look- ed it. up u little while 880- Tilt’- quantity coining into this country is amazing. We have surplus but- ter and other fats; we are in- creasing our pig production: we are selling bacon, and we have lard. We used to have a ready market for lard and still ship a farm! quantity of it to the United King- dom. The evidence given before the price spreads commission in- dicated that. the profits accruing to Canada. Packers from vegetable oils was enormous. I think 1n 011! particular year it. was nearly one- halI of their profits. I Neill/IO" this because it seems to me we should give this item very carc- ful ‘consideration. It. affects our butter and fat production. and our ability to sell it.

There is one other item dealt with in the minister's speech to which I think we. should pay some attention, namely that. of fumi- ture. I do not propose to do more ‘than say that as there is a. strike in the industry at. this time, as indicated by neWPPEDBT dlsiwtches» it would probably be undesirable to discuss the matter at this time. There are, however. phases of it which warrant the closest and most careful consideration by the government of a situation which now threatens the industry. I pointed this out: last year when we dealt with the United States tariff. and I think if the minister gives it careful consideration and atten- tion he will find mere is-

Mr. Dunning: It is still before the tariff board.

Mr. Bennett: Yes. I know it i5- I believe oils are also before the tariff board, judging from the dates on documents I have. I think probably it, had been settled. so far as the ten per cent. is con- oemed, befcre it reached the tariff board. But the minister has re- ferred it b0 the board.

Mr. Dunning: Yes.

Mr. Bennett: I make these ob- servations with respect to tariffs not in any censorious manner, but really in the trope that. I may be able to su est. to the government the desirsbliiy o! a more careful study than has yet been made. I cannot but. point out. that while in multiplicity of counsel there is wisdom, it also follows that. too many tariff experts sometimes have the effect of emphasizing the truth of that: other old proverb, that too many cooks spoil the broth. I merely mention that. in

P0561118- lncnl to Provinces

For the moment, leaving the tariff. there is one other mutter tn which I should like to refer, and that. is the question of our fin- ancial relations with the pro- vinces. The other day the min- inter dealt with the matter briefly. In amplification of the position I desired to present. at that. time I Uriah to say only this: the deter- mination of a policy, I found by eqmrience, is a matter of pro- found importance. because the im- plications"!!! it" sometimes are not foreseen. When the minister said to the province of Alberto that ‘i1 would not help them out a!

“~:1r difficulty by ndvmcing them, than‘! lulu a , -

lilller.

—_-—-i—-1-

ftclent. money 1o enable them-to pay their maturing obligations, his statement was regarded as a policy. Many people scattered throughout tlze province in which I have long lived, u well as people residing in other parts of Canada. found themselves in atraitened and difficult cir- cumstances because their invest- merits had been wholly in than securities. the market value o! which fell to a very low figure, and the interest upon which was rc- duced to half of what themouporis carried. I! that policy is revers- ed. 1f it is not applied to the pro- vinces of‘ Saskatchewan and Mani- toba, obviously a situation is created in which the people of 415C115 hive Just. cause to say they have been discriminated against. Because if the minister will accept what 1 think he will, namely that the intplicat‘ of his refusaltc: assist Alberta involved the thought that the some policy was m be applied to all the pm- vinees-

Mr. Dunning: And it. was,

Mr. Bennett. No, no.

Mr. Dunning: I refused British Columbia. and Saskatchewan 5|, the same time and on the same EPW111018. mconnection with the same class of matter.

Mr. Bennett: Yes,‘ but 1.11.1 m- vinces oi’ Saskatchewan, Manitoba and British Columbia have not. faulted. The province of Alberta defaulted. '

Mr. Dunning: If the right hon. gentleman will permit, on the ma- turity which was the occasion of the default. both British Coli1m- bia and Saskatchewan had 11111- turities at the same time and re- ceived preclsely the same answer.

Mr. Bennett: Yes. but I am painting out that Alberta default- e .

Mr. Dunning: Yes.

Mr. Bennett: And the others did not. Alberta defaulted because it was unable to‘ secure money from the dominion government to pre- vent it. from defaulting; that was regarded as an indication of a policy which I believe, rightly or wrongly, should not have been put in force at that particular time. . The Wheat. Board

Before resuming my seat there is one other matter to which I must. refer, and that is the wind- fall which the minister received from the wheat. board. Mr. Speak- er, I find it a little difficult to express myself in moderate terms with respect. to this matter. Prior to this government's assuming ot- flce there was outstanding a guarantee in these words:

"The minister, in addition, re- commends that such guarantee shall become operative and pay- ment thereunder, out of the con- solidated revenue fund, o! the re- spective, balances, if any. then due or accruing due. shall be made. after Wheat Producers have sold and realized upon all or prac- tlcally all of such wheat and other grains in its possession or con- trol, and have sold or disposed of all or practically all such contracts for future delivery of wheat and other grains, and application of the amounts realized, less ex- penses, has been made against such advances and interest, and thereupon the governor in coun- cil, on the recommendation of the Minister of Finance. shall deter- mine the date at. which payments are to be made in pursuance of this guarantee."

The wheat board act provided for the taking over by that board of the wheat. held by wheat pro- ducers. They took it over on a given day. Unfortunately under the negotiations they did not take it over as the statute provides. ‘The provision is that it. shall be taken over after negotiations, but they took it over in consequence of these words: __

"The government herewith makes formal request that the Canadian Cooperative Wheat. Producers Lim- ited transfer forthwith to the Canadian wheat. board “all when: or contracts to purchase or take delivery of wheat in respect of which the government of Canada has given a guarantee" on the terms of my letter November l2, 1935. to you. Stop. A similar re- quest has been serifto Mr. Mc- Farland.

Ultimately the threat was made that if they did not do so. credit would be stopped. That was the threat. It was done under duress, and as a result the wheat was taken over at almost the lowest price at. which wheat had sold. Then they came to parliament and asked for 810000.000 of a loss. Parliament voted the money. ngainist my protest. When I read the language of the Minister of Finance with respect to it I am amazed that such language should l": tised. because he points out that this was a loss which was irre- deemable; there was no pomible chance of retrieving it.

Mr. Dunning: Ne. no.

Mr. Bennett: Look at. the guitge.

Mr. Dunning: T think my right hon. friend should quote it exact- ly. It is perfectly true I had little hope.

Mr. Bennett: I thought I had the book before. but apparently it has been misplaced.

lan-

Mr. Dunnlnc: The loss was greater by the end of the fiscal year.

Mr. Bennett: I-le said the loss would be greater. In the middle of the year, without waiting for the and of the crop "your; he got $8.- 000000. How much more when in held? Is there or is there not to be a. further profit? It so. how mitch? It. ls impossible to any- exactly. '

Mr. Dunning: But it i! within more manageable proportions now.

Mr. Bennett: You, of course it. is within more manageable pro- portions. but. the principle ha: not changed. That. is the story, so far as 1’ can see. with respect to it. I thought I had the volume of Hansard containing the min- Hilii"! statement. but it is n. mat- ter which may be comidcred later.

f once heard a gentleman aay 1i. was difficult to understand any parliament. doing what vml done last. year with reopsct. to this mut- How can we Justify having

‘15659319- 193w

Dlld t uiiooo v-‘Ew 9" 1 . . only 08,000,000 ballgko, allltngmh“ more to go, the amount o! wfvsnia I do not know? Th", we have E1 government, through the probe Prime Minister, claiming a; 3pm,‘ don that they ivere the real rr.,'lu' era of the wheat bum-d 1"" 5Deakingt at Brandon, 1119' PIT,“ Minister, then leader of 11,, “l position. Pointed out um 111. {if oral party must take the cited“ the wheat board act. ' Mr. Mackenzie Kin : . tures of it, not the 5110510211 La Mr. Bennett: He pointed 0,5,, ., anything that might be of ,,l“.'. you: wasththtaldresult. of the S’ or o e beral ' the committee.‘ membm “1 Mr. Dunning: I think that fair. ~ ‘ l‘

A Fair Question

Mr. Bennett: If the

let me ask both the tr-linlslrilllgf" m 111m the Minister of ram?‘ whv it was they made it 1111110.? ibie for the farmers to use if‘,

11036-117. The language o, u" statute provided the farmer v11‘; an opportunity to have a second market; he could sell to the win», board and get. participation certi- ficates. Through the action of i119 government of Canada. he was pm. vented from being able to sell 111s wheat to that board and receiving Participation certificates. we no“, know that. not ﬂiousands but mii; lions of dollars have been made by saeculuwrs in that same 111191.; Qne man told me that his prom was half a million dollars and 1 know he was stating the facts Four large buyers took the wheat and instead of the participation certificates being in the hand; o1 the farmers, they reaped the bene- fit of the rise in price from 91 cents to $1.30 per bushel. It wa: in the ands of the grain ex. change. There is no denying L11. -facts as they are there upon 1111 record. I mention this in passing without going into it in detail, be. cause another opportunity will b1

afforded to discuss the mattg] fully. I am deeply concerned abou,

the operations and the effect oi the operations of the" wheat: board When I was standing in the plact now occupied by the right. 11011 gentleman opposite, I pointed out that that meant. that there wert‘ two markets possible, the one be- ing the board and the other the ordinary channels of the grain trade. The farmer had his choice of going to the market and getting participation certificates. If he had good fortune he could parti- cipate ln the increased price that If wheat went lower, the

came’. government. guaranteed him int fixed price. He got that. price.

But he w as not afforded that op- pprtiinity in 1936-37. Great. for- tunes have been made while the farmer has had 0o dispose of his wheat at. a price vrhich did not permit his utilizing the machin- ery of the wheat board.

There is another problem 1r. connection with which I think tiu hon. gentleman should have given some indication of his views, the problem touching the railways ni this country. I am not. going to review again the history of there railways. There are two problems of transcendent importance fac- ing this count and one is tha railway proble . It. was pointed out that the effect. of the agree- ment would be to increase the busi- ness of the railways t0 such an ex- tent. that. they would be able rapidly to overtake their difficul- ties. Of course that is not so and it could not be so in the very um‘ ture of things. The short haul: would not. endure to their benefit, to that extent. or to any other extent that would be perceptible- Of course improved condition! have improved the takings of tlw railways. Take our national rail- way, for example: there are Still three questions which remain un- answered. The annual report 0! 1905 showed a. cash deficit. of $49.- 000,000; the balance sheet shot“ I loss of $83,000,000. while thc bureau of statistics shows the lost

of the railways to be 0115100090“ The reconciliation 0f

amounts has not taken D18“- nme thing may be said with reé spect. to other matters connectc with this one. There is no Pr?“ lam to which the Minister of F111- ance could give his attention com; Durable with U16 Pmblem tim‘ arises from the railway‘ 5mm" “L; There is no problem which is -_ closely connected with the econ oinic condition of this country.

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