trio: (insomnia-rows: GUARDIAN

—Continued from Pike 1-

Puhlic Works Dept.

Ill. tewart: That ls exactly what we , ‘ "’ last year. Those ex-

' ermaiioa Lacking _ Stewart: Thea of course tUl ‘phould be shown in the estimates. Ihe estimates do not show anything. Sou put down $45.0“ and 1101111111 u“! you have all. these arrangements. flhe information in the 811ml"! Ices not permit the committee to dis- his this matter with any dcllte oi‘

"'l'*!"-'*::1'

irae were bought from the Irving Company, $872. Are those the manu- facturers or the agents of those ma- chines?

lilr. McIntyre: The agents.

JVlr. Stewart: Are the extras still being manufactured? Mr. McIntyre: Some of them are made in New Glasgow.

Mr. Stewart: So there are things that the machines wen't do.’

Mr. McIntyre: 0h yes, lots of things. '

Prince County Roads

Mr. Arsenauii: I understand there are two heavy power machines for ,operat1on in Prince Coimty. Does the Minister intend to have them start in Prince County pretty soon? i Mr. McIntyre: As soon as possible, yes.

It. Stewart: Yul expended last year $33,000, and your estimate was

Mr. Arsenault: May I make a sug- gestion? For years ‘We hate had about the sarneemount appearing in the estimates for bridges. We have been building permanent bridges un- der both parties. and I think it would be a good thing if the Minister would give us an estimate of the

umber of wooden bridges that re- main in this Province and how much

Inot know at Ottawa that these gen-

covers all tholo thine; but I0 1W3 something to show for it. and more than that we had to pay car fare out cfourexpepsecrmbyloy uuuomb months after my hon. friensc tool: office I ‘received, as Premier and At- ltorney General. a traveliinl pals. I iliinkall the members of the ‘ er Government received one at that time. As a matter of fact. they did

tlemen had taken power, of course. we. appreciated the joke and return-

Ml‘. Stewart: My memory quite

_ ‘leteligence. A: I understand it now. you are saturating for $11,000 less gross expenditure on the roads? § Mr. McIntyre: No. $121,000 ha; and $180,000 this year. Mr. Stewart: But Mwidiiii; to "i?

. gccounts you spent $142,000 last year.

, MI. McIntyre: You are including jiighway superintendents and engi- .’-i"°"- .

1 Mr. Stewart: Yes, road masters an ‘engineers, $20,000. ' j m. McIntyre: That a not includ- Qd in this.

_ Mr. Stewart: That of course should be counted in.

' Mr. McIntyre: Last year we had to pay commissions to the road masters. This year there will be none.

Mr. Stewart: But your cxpendiium

i under this system are greater. The superintendents are costing a 81B“ deal more than the road masters.

' Mr. McIntyre: We have got 1h?! much more work out of them.

Mr. Stewart: That, of course, is H matter of opinioik Everybody 11w agree with you.

_ Mr. Arseaauit: The $45,000 would be the net amount that you h. ex- pending after spending all the 885°‘ ling tax. You must expect to receive o lot more than you did last year. It is B cents a gallon, and last year you only received tom that source $08,000. You must make provision for the rebate to the farmers. Altogether

last

000. , Premier Saunders: Something like that.

lilr. Arsensult: We had 5.000 cars Llsst year. and they ran all winter. i ‘cannot see where you will gec the increased revenue. You are putting 3ft in your astirnates, to expend a large hum of money, and you will come in- to the House next year and say: "Well, we expected to get that much, Thur, we were disappointed."

Mr. Stewart: How much more are you budgethog for from gasoline tax ithan you actually received last year? 1 Premier Ssunde .. W9 received ,l'il,000. We think it Illll run UP t0 :ll00,000 this year. I Mr. Stewart: I hope my hon. ifiriend’: expectation will be realized. ‘but l’ ehnnotisee it. From what l [have ascertained this year car deal- ‘ Iers the sale of any car Ls not half jwhat it was.

j _ Premier Saunders: Well, I think s11 f-the cars we had last year are still in iexiatence.

§ Mr. Stewart: Oh no, a great many l f them are not.

Premier Saunders: well, of course, ‘tit is only an estimate.

Stewart: 1t is never wise to xesttfnate too high. I notice that my _ hon. friend's travelling expenses in .;.;_ his department, last year were a lit- _ ---_ tie higher: nearly $1,000.

,' ', Mr. McLure: He was having e, good ‘fy-jimef

l... engineers.

Mr. Stewart: in Appendix 5 of the Public Accounts we have: Travelling Expenses, Minister of Public Works ..nnd Highways, $400; and again, in Mlsullaneous items, McIntyre, J, P, expenses to Ottawa, Pictou and Good pmlioads Conference, Regina, $200, I

~, find that last year the? cost of road ‘,,-_; machine extras was $12,000. 1s the

__. estimate raised this year?

» Mr. Hciqtyre: $2,000 less than last F"- ' .

T‘ , Inexperienccd Operators p _

Mr. Stewart: Why do you make p ‘the estimate lower? Was there any- .;._ thing wrong with these machines‘ . they were bought? ’ i " Mr. McIntyre: 1t is only an asti- _ “mate. v lb‘. Stewart: But why estimate" jgwn for the second ysas thqpthoy- actually cost for the first year? V ' Mr. llcLure: They improve with mi (laughter) . _._ In McIntyre: Bacall» thtpfirst- an will be more acquainted with their machines and there probably won't be as much expenditure, , ' m. liewart: ma. tart-art}:

f

eaosnltiio - 1-: .- llr- Ilclotyre: It was not very much.

_ in Oaoada

you must be 081100911118 to make 3110- '

q; Mr. McIntyre: That includes the.

. roads. l suppose.

lust year wee muse p; raciusqq-r. ,

1115551. i

Mr. Stewart: Are these machinesi still in the market? l Mr. McIntyre: No, I don't think so. but; they are-making all the extras that we need in New Glasgow.

‘Mr. Stewart: Is that the Irving Company? '

Mr. Arsenault: I think he made a mistake in his speech when he said jhe had done the road from Welling- lton to Muddy Creek. We didn't get “Jiat yet. Does he expect to have that iroad completed this summer?

. i Mn Mainly", Ne, Cummings‘ i Mr. Mclntyrmtl hope so. 1d Mr. Stewart: r think the largest: M“ "'t=°°'““' -I w" h“'°" m be amount for extras is from Poole and I thankful mmhl t my on‘ ind Thompson, Limited. They are not Lmildt Tlachin: tgoerm: $512k manuf turer , are they? ; c i‘ °5 ma‘ ' 3 e l“ Zinnia,“ Na , would be possible to use the heavy Mr. Stewart: For what machines "mchine the"? w,“ mesa extras purchased? Zmltlr. ltlslntyre: Celrtaln piortions oi.’ M“ McIntyre, Forage“ a roa are very ow an swampy. “h Skwnh were those Fqrdson 11f might be possible at a dry time in machines purchased through Pooiefiilfiust- and Thmnpson? , Mr. Arsenault: Those ore very im- Mr. McIntyre: No, they were pur- >ll°fmm T011435- chased from Irving, in St. John. 1 M” luclmyre: They are secondary l i

Mr. Stewart: what do you mean? WW5- ‘ Irving L5 an “can is,“ he? Mr. Arsenauli: But very import- ant.

Mr. McIntyre: Yes. ' , lvlr. Stewart: Just the same as Poole 3 511111150 = Emil Firm

dz Thompson? i Mr. McLure: if we had an outside M; Mdngyg-g; Ye; audit we would have had same ldca Mr. Stewart: That ls the famous iof what had been expflided 011 thilol telephone message? road machines. Now we see. in the Mr. McIntyre: That is the one. ‘Public Accounts, that almost every Mr._Stewart: At nay rate, that is JCCOIIH item for a. whole page and a the situation. They are a year old, ‘half is for repairs and extras. Almost and you '0 budgeting for $2,000 less I evefy- firm. in. the. Provilwe- Mid .,._41|1¢.;|;i.1i 10s] for the upkeep, than lthroughout the Maritime Provinces last year. . ‘is represented. making a total MnMcIntyr-e: Yes. amount for extras for those machin- Q e5 of $12,026.49. There is no big con- Cost of Operation lcern in this Province capable of '. Mr. Stewart: With ‘l'€Kh\Td to thee‘! i making extrasrexcept Bruce Stewart road districts and the expenditures. 1e Company, l.td., and I‘ do no: lee I notice that there are a number of "in this Account any indication that 11111151111113! 18-180 items amon! thfiflhey were given any wor}: on those smaller ones-Y I direct your attrn- fmischlnes. 1 would like to know from tionib Road Division 21.1mm Coon-lure Minister of Public Works it he _ty (Page 68, Appendix 6 of the Pub- Ignored this ilrm entirely because it 11¢ 50901111155)» we 119-119 l 1°11! ser- is in the Charlottetown constituency? 198 0i 11501118 11919. 811d they B16 mi’ Mr. McIntyre: Any work that. they "cry iliuminotinz because We cannot ‘were capable of doing we gave it. to. tell what the expenditures are for. them i

For instance, William Ives, $548.75. ML Mam-e; you 01¢ not 31cc Mr. McIntyre: He operated one 02,1119... any last year; or at least it the machmei- . i idoes not appear in the Public Ac- Mr. Stewart: How much did the ‘comma

machine in that district we: i0 011-1. Mr. McIntyre: That is not the erate for the year? 5e35,, \

M“ Manly": I 1mm" 110i ma! Mr. McLure: Did you give them “gm”- [any work last year?

it would take to have them all com- pleted. The people are beginning to

onder why we are expending this amount of money every year for bridges. Would it be possible to get an estimate of what the remainder will cost?

Mr. McIntyre: I asked the engin- eers that same question, and we will go. a. good many years yet before we can reduce the expenditure,

Mr. Pnsenault: There must be con- siderably more than ‘half of the bridges finished now.

Mr. McIntyre: No. I doubt if there

ed the passes.

Mr. Sinclair: May I ask if my hon. friend did not receive, a pass as im- migration agent?

Mr. Stewart: I did: I received it shortly before I went out, of power. It was good between Charlottetown ‘and Ottawa only.

Mr. McIntyre: You should have kept them. .

Mr. Stewart: That is the diflerence ;bstween my hon, friends and us. He {would have kept that pass, although ‘he knew it. was not intended for ~ilill’l!

i Premier Saunders: They knew so ‘little about you they didn't know you shouldn't have had it.

Mr. Stewart: But they didn't know anything about my hon. friend at all. and he had been In office then for srveral months! (Laughter). We sent

is.

k Bushing lee: 81,250

Mr. Arscnault: There was an in- crease in this expenditure last year. Where is it going? hast year there was very little ice to bush. Your es- I timate" was $1,200 and you spent $1,263.

Mr. McIntyre: We hushed somegyou were and “m, yo“ l“ your places that we never hushed before. Ilpaks (Agpmuse)

Mr. Stewart: In the last two yearsi ' ' ' this expenditure has increased by‘, one-third. 1t used to be 02:00. Now it‘; is over $1200, and that extra $400|

would cover a good deal of road Is i Mr’ “tenure: we have m this m” my hon friend w" that he L‘ D's} >vince a Deputy Minister of Public

lng at the same rate? Igslfziearrlg; fifnd ‘that the“ L; “'0 Mr. McIntyre: The same rate, In a e ' or his genflemans

salary, Is it included in this $9,000? some Places it vanes‘ Premier Saundera- That item is Mr. Stewart: Is this work clone by ‘ " contract? ispcciallyi provided for,

, The item passed.

Mr. McIntyre: Exactly the same as 3 under my hon. friend. i Mr. Stewart: That is not an ans-i W61‘. ‘ (The next item, Capital Expendit- MP- MCYMYIH $01116 of it, is done ure, was divided 0s follows: Rights by contract. There is a certnirrcg way, 31000; permanent] 131-10395‘; amount for a certain distance on the ‘ and Qrgvglllng, 3130,1100; Ngwpgrt {bays and rivers. token from one year ‘Ferry, $3,000; New Snow Ellis River, to another it is about the same. 135.000,)

Mr- Ar==nauit= Do you pay at a; Mr. Stewart: 1 trust my hon. friend uniform rate. so much per mile? {W111 81v‘, us an exphmaqon Wm. re. Mr. McIntyre: It is estimated at ‘Hard m the flnancmg o1 the Newport, “Milt $150 P" mile- irony boat. I see you have $3,000 here. Mr. Arsanault: There should be a ML Mchqlyl-Q; The“ w“ $14,050 uniform rote to pry for bushing the paid on that boat. She was not taker. ice- over by the Government last fall. and we kept back between $5,000 and $0.000, Thai; amount is in the Bank unexpended. We anticipated Mi’- Affiflillllii The"? 15 111i 1111- having an engine of about 00 horse

Deputys Salary

Newport Fcwy

Telephones. $1,800

‘Mr. Stewart: Zi/ill my hon. friend‘, M‘, Many", we gave them any‘ g ve me the av rage cost of opera- work they were able w d°_ m" m 9am diam“: the“? Mr. McLure: Why does not their: M'- Mdniy": 1 gave W“ the aver" jaccount appear in the Public Ac- "e "t ‘ma’ m‘ “w” “at i“ the bud‘ icounts in reference to road machin- get speech. lay? ‘M’: s“"'“"’ I supmse H W“ n“ i Mr. McIntyre: There may be some H‘ t° “s ma“ W“ cw“ give it m “S ‘outstanding accounts from Bruce now, Did they cost $700 per dls- [Stewart & 0Q ' "M, j Mr. Mi-Lure: I guess there i; a 1:‘- M°l“':t":MOi “s?” his?’ did" ‘good deal outstanding. If we had

"- SRW“ ‘ we a“ a‘ the outside audit we would know. Mr. Melntyre: Yes. Mr. Stewart: Did they cost 31.0017? Mr. McIntyre: Yes, they cost a‘. thousand dollars. i M" s"w‘fllilnzw 1°“ were mo“ ‘I want to ask about; they are small. “mum's w“ n5 but they are an index to the system, Mr. McIntyre: They were working land m that way they may be im_ four months; perhaps some of them pnrtant‘ u my hon friend would mm“ turn to page 54 of Appendix 0- Pub- !‘ Mr. SteugiartoijoTiiflt *5 135m’ fllwfi ‘lie Accounts, “Roads. Queens Coun- "Y- m" ' a Ye“ P" “_“ 4y.‘ he yvill notice the name “George my lion friend gets for being Mm- »C‘ Kitsom $6003. and ‘mmediawly, m"- following it. "George Iriiscn. $18.75.“? M" Mdmiw“ 5""! i find the same thing tinder Road’ “Mr-rsxra": zvvhhatcis the lilmssm‘ Division. No, 13, page 127: George

Y ° "55- a are a ca’: _Kit:"on, SflSO; George C. Kitson, ma“ items. ujohll AitkBIi. $37591 $0.49, Are there two people of that Wallace Aitken, $23.25; Roy Aiiken, name in the same district? 01.50;» William Altken, $1.50." etc. M‘ Mdmm, I do,“ know There are several pages of them. Mn 51mm.“ My ‘nfonnaflon 1s TM“ MHMY": F“ lab” m‘ ‘he that there is only one. I merely point this out to show the discrepancy in the accounts. They would be much more intelligent if care were taken Ito avoid any such repetition. ‘These ;tvi'o names might very well represent the same person.

Mr. McIntyre: It is quite possible.

Mr. Stewart: Is it not probable?

Mr. McIntyre: No doubt he is the same man. '

Faulty System

Mr. Stewart: There are some items

Mr. Stewart: So that not\vlth- standing the machines there was atlll d great deal of labor?

. Mr. McIntyre: Certainly, and will ‘havmto he every year- i

My. Stewart: Horses carts? Mr. McIntyre: Certainly.

Mr. Stewart: I thought that was. dons away with: I thought it was £38m.‘ . , Hr. McIntyre: You have got to flli 311111555; $0,000

"if illiitl- ' Mr. Stewart: Does my hon. Mend ‘Wucifitlflft! ‘Mil you can't do expect to do as much bridge-work ‘at with m‘ bk machines? this year a; last?

Mr- Mrlnim: No- Mr. McIntyre: YI. about the some.

crease in this item too, What is that ,pOW€l‘, And when we found that the for? ? boat would not be powerful enough

Mr. McIntyre: Long distance mcs- ito have a. wheel-house control, after sages! ‘the estimates went through. last; year

Mr. Arsenauli: That shouldnt‘ bcEwB 110d m get a heavier engine, as great this year. You might tell us ‘wmch 00st about $3,000 more. That who got the commission on that deal. .15 “ma; me item of $3,000 is in the 1t is all settled now. (Laughter), 6501,1945 10y 1,1115 year, because the

‘ ' engine cost that much more. Miscellaneous Public Works $9,000 ]\[|', Stewart: What has the boat cost. altogether?

Mr. McIntyre: There i; $51990 9i the $20,000 in the Bank to be paid over when the boat is satisfactory.

Mr. Stewart: The statement this year shows that my hon. friend paid this on the contract, on account. Is the contract paid in full?

Mr. McIntyre: The contract is not ‘ paid in full.

Mr. Stewart: How much is OM08?

Mr. McIntyre: $11,000, I remem-

Mr. Stewart: 1 think 1 can now re- fer to the item I meniioned before. I WES Just noticing that my hon. fziendfls travelling expenses had gone up to $1.000, and half as much again could be taken into the calculation, in as much as up to the time this Government came in to the calcula- tion in as much as up to the time this Gov‘t came in the transporta- tion expenses had to be paid. Now the Minister gets his transportation bu. correctly, 11; W111 00kg about free; if that item were added we ‘$8,000 1,0 pay off all that is due on would have a pretty large amountqhe bu“ The dgbgnturgg we issued for travelling expenses during thcilasiv y“, brought about 010,000, and past year in connection with his de- we paid $14950’ The" 1; gomething

.1110» passes back and told them who '

‘right to spend 1t on read building or

partment. The car fare ‘to Regina, for instance, would cost quite an amount. I am just wondering what we have to show for it, Has there

over $5,000 still in the Bank. The cost of the boat was more than we estimated, and we are placingvthis additional $3,000 in the estimates to

been any improvement in the condi- tions of the Province as a result of these expenditures?

Mr. McIntyre: I think my‘ hon. friend's memory i5 very short. He should look up the amount of his travelling expenses to Ottawa; and I was informed that he had a pass.

Mr. Stewart: That is not true.

Mr. McIntyre: Well, if my hon. friend looks up the amount he took for his expenses to Ottawa he wlll_ find they are on the same basis, I attended a good roads conference in Regine. and even if you have a tray- elling 018s your hotel expenses in those places are Pretty large. I doubt if my hon. friend would get book from Regina. for less than $200.

cover that.

Mr. Stewart: So that the boat is costing some $22,000.

Mr. McIntyre: Ilxactly,

Mr. Stewart: My hon. friend says that $5.000 is in the Bank. ls it in a special account?

Mr, McIntyre: No, it, is in the amount that. is borrowed for that purpose. That amount does not ap- pear in the expenditures.

Mr. Stewart: That is the trouble: I can't find it at all.

Mr. McIntyre: Because it is not spent.

Mr. Stewart: But my lion. friend lays it is in the Bank.

Mr. McIntyre: Yes.

lrattlithafillltlilllllilllo- ccdimandanlelsttlstaelsevitl aooiluathoweeeldttbolntbelalk?

(Ill. McIntyre did lot N018).

limlichtsrebhcsle' blnatawamwhatiayheiatrland sheoldhsvoduewheaasborrowed ihI-thmrfu-amciolamuewsg to pot ttina special accountant keep it separate. Thai money wde beswiedbyvirtueofaltatnieand

was for that purpose. My nuns ‘had no right to pat that money into general account.

Mr. McIntyre: we don't control the Treasurer's Department.

Mr. Stewart: Did you make any recommendation that that should be done?

Why should we?

Mr. Stewart: Don't you think: you should have done so? You are re- sponsible forthat department. These amounts are charged to the Depart- ment of Public Works and the ro- sponslbiilty is upon you. The Statute was passed at your instance, provid- ing that the money should he bor- rowed for one purpose. and it should not have been used for anything else. That is the point I have taken all along, and I take the same ground h: regard to the gravel. .

Mr. McIntyre: ins: is the audit- or's responsibility.

Mr. Stewart: It was my hon. 'frlend's_Dcpai-i.ment that expended the money arid he cannot escape re- sponsibility, by. putting. it. on. the shoulder; of the auditor. What I ny- is that $150,000 was borrowed for gravel and only $00,000 wu spent for that purpose,’ notwithstanding that the Statute authorised that money to be borrowed for gravel and for nothing else. The people". who" loaned the moneygloaned it on the Statute, which constltutod the con- tract with those people; and I say that my hon. friend had no right to violate the expressed terms o! the Statute and spend the money for onything else, ' _ _ W Mr. McIntyre: You didn“; talreithat ground when you spent. $230,000.