MARCH so. 193a - LONG SESSION

(continued from 998° 17

Hon. Dr. Maclidillan: “I made no promiseS to the people of W8 PF"- mm that if increases became no- xssary 1n the Department of Edu- nation I would not make them. In the first place 1 had nothinl to 4° with thc Department l" "w"

‘- tlon when I was running the elec-

tion. I say that the flPWmtmwt - o; moss extra teachers in i319 Prince of Wales College were ab- - s ' necessary." Mr. McIntyre: "mt may 0° - a true, but——" '

“Hon. Dr. MacMillan: "Well?"

Mr. McIntyre: “But Y0“ “"14 have done without them."

Hon. Dr. MacMlllan: "You admit they were absolutely necessary, yet we could have done without them?"

Mr, McIntyre: “We can do with- Duts. lot of thin!!! that may be g rbsolutely necessary!’ " Hon. Dr, MacMillarl: “That may

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Mr. Ica ‘said that the present time 90 per cent of a man's salary represents as much as, or more than, his full salary under normal

, renditions, so that unless salaries are cut to some extent they are comparatively increased by reason of their greater purchasing power. lie realized the Ministcr must pro- ‘, ride rol- additional teachers but it u time that a. revision of salaries was considered. It would be no "hardship for any person to take a reduction in view of the fact that farmers are taking from 50 to 75 pcr cent out On their farms. Yet it is proposed in these Estimates to reepall the salaries as they were , in 1931. Mr. Lea submitted that the f Estimates showed anything but a 0' desire to practise rigid economy, or rconomy oi any kind; and there — rhould be a paring down.

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Teachers‘ Position

Hon. Mr. MacPhee said the large part of tho item relating to sal- aries was $247,000 for district

l teachers. It is only with regard to that item that any material reduc- tion in salaries could be made. when considering any possible re- dllction in tcachers’ salaries we must consider that the teachers are paid from two sources. They re- ceive a supplement from the school districts, and they are paid from

, the treasury of thc Province. The

i grave dangerin contemplating any

reduction in teache salaries is that there would be a reduction in

i two ways. The speaker knew of a number oi instances in which the teachers are not receiving the sal- aries voted them and for which

' they have already worked. Owing

to the unfortunate financial cir- cumstanccs of the country he knew of teachers who have not been paid for the last year and in some cases for the last two years, and this condition may apply even to a greater extent this year. "We must take that into consideration in considering the Intimates," said Mr. MacPhee. "I am afraid that li

;, the suggestion of the leader oi the Opposition were acted upon-given

‘ though it is, w I know, in good

. faith-At would be a grave miscar-

l rlage oi justice. They would be

, taking a two-fold reduction.

"The result in the final anal-

i ysis,"- continued Mr. MacPhee, "is that because oi conditions in the

Y country today the teachers are go-

ing to have salaries reduced and we

are going to have to pay a greatcr percentage oi the salaries they re- ceive than we paid in the past.

Prom what is likely to happen when

supplements come to be voted next

year, that is the conclusion forced upon us."

m». MacPhec referred to the ex- odus of experienced teachers in other years to the Western Prov- inces. Now is the opportunity b staff our schools with good teach- ers, ho,- said. Tho general impression t ts that the building oi the new I Prince of Wales College marks a

new era in our educational devel- opment. Much oi the opportunity thus afforded would be wasted un-

less we succeed in stablishing a

Permanent staff oi efperieneed,

well qualified teachers throughout

the Province. The l‘ position lead- er's suggestion is directly against the attainment oi that objective; but it is an objective which we

4) ould all keep in mind. '

Mr. Dennis lnsistcd on -the ser-

_ious financial condition oi the

Province. A gtraight cut should be

made of 10 per cent on every ' Hlary paid by tho Government.

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Places Responsibility

Hon. Dr. Macmillan: "The Ex-

wal an increase of 821.000 over last year in this department. We will deal with that increase. I may call attention to the items that are un- controllable: Printing, stationery, etc., 82,200: teachers’ training course in ~711M- 8300: fuel. repairs, etc., $10,000. The expenditure last year was 86.000 but that is quite easy to understand because there is a new 511114108 there this year to look af- ter. That is an expenditure for which I am not responsible; it is unavoidable. But there is an in- crease in teachers‘ salaries from $245,000 to $247,000. I may say that fllflt $345,000 was an increase from the year before. That is due to the fact that more teachers have been given first class salaries. Will my hon. friends member the cause of more teachers getting first class salaries? It was simply because the Bell Government made it possible for first class teachers to get first class salaries ifthey received $100 supplement from the school dis- tflots. That has caused an increase in teachers’ salaries for many years which is automatic; and I am not responsible for that increase. Neith- er is the department; but the Gov- ernment of the day, which made it possible, is responsible." (Applause),

"Another reason why there is an increase in teachers’ salaries is that four or five schools that were clos- ed, were reopened last year. That is a matter over which the depart- ment has no control, for as soon as those schools can furnish tho at- tendance they are entitled to a teacher, under the Act.

Teachers’ Pemicns

"Now I draw your attention to another item: Superannuation fund, $8,000. My hon. friend knows what that is for. That is teachers’ pensions. Last year it was $1.500; this year it is $5,000. Will my hon. friend tell me who is responsible for that? Surely the Government that passed the Teachers Pensions Act and made it possible. One Professor was appointed in Prince of Wales College last year whose appointment was approved of on the floor of the House by the Op- position a year ago. I refer to Pro- fessor Lloyd Shaw. director of teachers training. But since then there have been two appointments in the Summerside High School and one in Prince, oi Wales College. Professor Patterson, instructor in mathematics, was appointed on the recommendation of the College staff and he i.s a highly qualified man. I accept full responsibility for those increases.

"There were. however, 120 pupils more in Prince of Wales College last year. Are those pupils entitled to be taught properly or not? Those who were in charge advised us that they were unable to carry on with- out addiitonal teachers, and give proper attention to the increased

pumber of pupils.

"I will accept full responsibility for my share oi the expenditure, but the membe s of the Opposition must accept responsibility for the items in that increase oi $21,000 for which they were responsible.” (Applause).

Mr. Ica said he was not criticis-

ing theso expenditures but consid- eration should be given to a gen- eral all-round reduction in salaries. He would not suggest a straight cut on teachers getting less than $500, but on salaries higher than this amount there should be some re- ductimr. He did not believe govern- ment employees were receiving too much. and regretted having to sug- gest a cut; but the condition of the times demanded it. He could not follow the Cardigan member's argu- ments. The country is filled with good teachers today. $11,000 could be‘ saved without touching the teachers salaries at all. He stressed the drastic and heartrendlng ei- fects o: the depression. To him the future was less hopeful than it was twelve months ago. Hon. Dr. MacMillan: "I take it that my hon. friend's criticism does not apply specially to ihc Depart- ment of Education."

Mr. Ice: "Not at all."

Hon. Dr. MacMillan: "You are making it apply to the whole list?"

Mr. Lea: "To the wholc list, and 1f. lirlhlr it ought to apply m thc whole list oi civil servants in Con- ads."

On motion of Mr. Dennis. thc items were nllofa-d to stand for further consideration, and thc House adjourned. '

dMarclr 29, Aficmoon Session

- The House resuming Committee reading on supply. Education items wero again considered. I

m. 1.9; repeated h.'s arguments

rrm CHARLOTTETOWN GUARDIAN

{- 815 percent salary cut in U, 5., violating an agreement. Wvemment employees lIi view of nob. m. MacMiilan: “Does ‘my the fact that the cost of living had hon. friend suggest that this is a declined 23 per cent. He submitted I parallel case?"

lyeafs stirnates be above last year's expenditures.

LEGISLATURE

that the same Jaonditfon; gppllgd’ here and that some reduction in salaries should be made.

He explained that $15,000 of the estimated expenditure is contribut-

No Increase

AIN BBMMITTEE

Hon. Mr, MacPhee said he wish-

ed by thc Life Underwriters Also- elation.

Mr. Lea: “We are voting this to- tal amount but we are only pay-

Mr. McIntyre supporicd Mr, Leo's suggestion. He would not ad- - vocate cutting teachers salaries

under $500 but the opposition‘ would be prepared to take a cut ini

less than $1,000 should take a, re- duct'on of 5 per cent; those rg-I ceiving liver $1,000 should takeacut

nothing for their labor and others have no employment. If s. reduc- tion oi $50,000 was made in these estimates we would have that much m0“? money to spend on unem- ployment. He approved also oi the sessional indemnity. Business mm were taking a big cut and some of them did not know whether they would get through or not. It was‘ up to Government departments to co-operate in reducing expenditur- es.

Mr. ‘Thane A. Campbell was sur- prised that the Governments mem- , bers and supporters had no com- ment to make on this subject, It may be said that the salaries paid to Government-officials are ridicu- lously low; nevertheless the money must be found out oi,’ the public treasury. The Government was elected on a policy of rigid economy and their only action has been to make new appointments. A 10 per cent. in reduction of salaries would leave public servants in a. better position than they were three or four years ago with their present salaries and were therefor in l. very favored position as compared with the rank and file oi the citi- ‘zens. He approved of the general reduction as "an emergency meas- ure". He would like to hear some expression of opinion from the Government.

Mr. Dennis indorsed a salary re- duction on the ground of ‘the dif- ficulty farmers are experiencing at the present time.

Opposition Amendment

Mr. Ica moved: that the salaries under consideration be reduced on the following scale: Salaries 01 persons receiving from $500 t0 $1»- 7000, 5 per cent; salaries of persons receiving over $1.000 and under $2.000, 10 per cent; salaries of per- sons receiving $2.000 or over. 15 P" cent.

Mr. Lee's amendment was dc- feated on a straight party vote 14- 12 and the clause carried on the some division.

HEALTH DEPARTMENT ($33,320)

Mr. LePage said the salaries of Dr. Crealman and others had been increased.

Hon. D1‘. Macmillan said there was an increase in the salaries oi medical men and nurses in accord with an Brill gemesl‘ made under the late Liberal Govem- ment. Under that agreement the Life Underwriters pay $15,000 of the amount. There is provision for an automatic increase for- five years until the maximum was reached.

Mr. McIntyre: "What does City Health Officer receive?" Hon. Dr. MacMillan: ‘$3.600!’ Mr. McIntyre: "He is getting al- most twice as much as the Minis- ter of Education."

Hon. Dr. MacMillanz he is a full time man. Mr. LePage: "Tilers are lots of full time men not getting half that amount."

Hon. Dr. MacMillan: "Does my hon. friend suggest that we repud- iate the agreement to which he was a party? Is there no more logic in lfm than that. '1‘ ere was a def- illitc agreement ma e by the late Liberal Government and this scheme of automatic increase of salaries is part of that ngs ment. Does ho wish now to repudiate it?” Mr. IcPagc: "There are lot.s of agreements that have been repud- iated written the lest few years, on account of conditions. and lots of prom‘ses too. We have 90W" 0° legislate as we see fit and we can change that agreement if we see

th

0

"Because

he had ‘produced’ the contents of any letter. ss re- ferred to.

to Crown P. Irepresenilns the Crown in prose- cuting criminal cascs.

irrg half?" Hour. Dr. MacMillan: "Yes."

"glmlll 1059mm“?- Tfiese paid Ml‘. Lea: “Well, of course that is

rather different."

Hon. ‘Jr. MaoMillsn: "Oi course

it is."

of 15 percent or whatever reduc- \‘ tion is considered advisable. Tm mm "Sui Mr. IcPage concurred. Farmers today were getting pfacucany ADMINISTRATION or JUSTICE

(860,905)

Mr. Ica aald the estimate was

more than double what it was l0

years ago. Where. he asked, are we drifting. Mr. McIntyre cited the salaries,

a keeper and two assistant keepers 6”” mum!” m‘ "em and ‘"3"; m Queen.‘ county Jan w“ than gesting thta expenditures are get-

an additional assistant added? Hon. Dr. MaoMlllanz "At present

we have two assistant keepers. The

jailer is ill and the third man will

be there temporarily. Ills appoint-

ment was made on the re-

commendation of Inspector Frippsi as a result of investigations in the

Jail. Dr. MacMilian said there

were no increases in the estimates for Jail expenditures;

the total amount of two of the jails was re- duced over last year's estimates

while in the other case the figure was the some.

Mr. LePsge defended his action

m. J. A. MacDonald denied that or saws tioned

Heated remarks were exchanged

between Mr. MacDonald and Mr. IePage at this point, which the chairman ruled out of order.

Hon. Dnvliiifaolidillan agreed that

it was sometimes difficult to re- fuse Leave Act. He referred to Mr. Mo. Intyreh criticisms of escapes from the Kings County Jail. He under- stoodm. McIntyre to imply that the Government neglected the loose bar in the jail cell. Just as soon as the attention of the Govemment was called to the matter s. man

quests under the Ticket of

was sent down to make the nec-

essary repairs.

Former Jail Conditions

Mr. J. Howard MacDonald re- ferred to the manne in which the

King's County Jail was conducted while Ml‘. Mclntyrg was Minister

oi Public Works. l-le had met jail prisoners at 9 or 10 o'clock on the streets of Georgetown, doing busi- ness. Whether they got out by reas- on of loose bars or whether- the jailer let them out he did not know.

But as soon as the situation was

drawn to the attention of the pres-

ent Government by the R. C. M. P.

the thing was corrected and hc understood there had been no fur- ther trouble with respect to the

King's County Jail.

Mr. Lea asked for the sums paid ecuto s and others

Hon. Dr. MacMillan said this in-

formation was being tabulated and [would be furnished as soon as pos- sible.

Mr. '1'. s. Campbell wished to

know if the salaries of additional Crown Prosecutors represented all their fees.

Hon. Dr. MacMillan said ihc

Crown Prosecutors were only re- ceiving $5,500 and considered a very adequate remun- eration.

this was not

Mr. Campbell said that the ap-

Polrltment oi Crown Prosecutors might be more efficient but it was certainly not more economical. He was surprised at tho criticism of the member from Georgetown (Mr. J. Howard MacDonald) Campbell said, was at that time

who. Mr.

‘ed to remove the idea that there had been any increase in expend- ltura for the Department of Jus- tice since his Government assum- ed charge. Previously there was some $19,000 of prohibition inspect- ors’ salaries tucked away in the Prohibition Commission Accounts. All the inspectors’ charges are now charged to the Attorney Generals department. There was a total of $26,000 charged to Prohibition Com- mission in 1930, that is now includ- ed in the Estimates, The salary of the Prohibition Magistrate was pre- sumably 81,500 but was actually $2,228.50 in 1930 and this amount was paid out of Prohibition Com- mission. "Therefore I say that when members of the Opposition

ting beyond control. that they arc I speaking, to use a phrase quoted by ‘ the last speaker. “out oi the abund- i once’ of their ignorance." I

Continuing, Mr. MacPhee referred to fires which had occurred in the Jails under both administrations. The Liberals had not been criticis- ed because of the fires or disturb-

ances; those things may happen!

under the most careful administra- tion. The Liberals had promised the ;electors in 1927 of the wonderful [manner in which they would en- ‘force Prohibition. The Conserv-

m obgahflng the ,elem o, a mm ‘ atives had insisted on the difficul- Qonyloted on first ofleme for book ties of enforcing Prohibition. When] legging under the Ticket of leave Act. The matter, he sold, 115d been referred to in the Budget debate. He. Mr- LePase. had written a let- ter to the chairman of the Pro. hlbltion Commission and this letter _ p“ been mwmed’ but not m“, , but because they occurred aft-er thc} by I- speaker in the debate. Mn. up”, N“ a “W o’ ma‘ mm now in opposition. to the Committee.

the Liberals were returned they showed plainly that they could not even keep liquor out of the jails. That was why Liberal prohibition enforcement was called a farce.- not because of jail disturbances,

protestations of the hon. members‘

Striking Comparison

After combining the figures of expenditure now being nradc through the department of the At- torney General which werc former- ly charged to the Prohlbiilon Com- mission, Mr. McPhee submitted that. if those expenditures had been paid out of the Attorney GeneraPs de- partment in 1930, the total expend- iture in that department would have been $15,828. ' '

It is true. Mr. McPhee continued. that the Province is now getting tne services of the R. C. M. P. for $15.- 000. He submitted, however, that over a long period of years and having regard to the services per- formed, the expenditure in the Da- partment of Justice was relatively low.

Mr. Lea said he realized the reasons for increased expenditure in the department but insisted on the unfavorable conditions for such increases.

Ml’. McPhec: “I am just suggest- ing that we are taking care oi the same service through which you paid your Prohibition Commission. I am not charging all the items by any means but I am taking the salaries of inspectors, of Magis- trates, the fees- paid to prosecutors and attorneys, and similar items, totalling $26,033.80.

MP- Climbbell said the Provincial Police were costing about $40,000 under Liberal administration.

Hon. fMr. MacPhee: "Were the Provincial Police paid out of the treasury or the Province or by the Prohibition Commission?"

Mr. Ica: "I don't know what the proportion was, but tlle total was very greatff

Mr. Campbell: "Ill 1930 I think ‘3 they were all paid by the Prohibi- tion Commission but there was an arrangement made whereby the two forces were amalgamated and an arrangement was made that the

salaries would be paid by the Com- 011551011 and the equipment and running expenses were paid out of the treasury." At 6 p.m. the House took recess. - (To be Continued)

. Instruction In

Curing Of 171's]:

(Canadian Press) OTTAWA, March flit-Instruction

fit."

l-ion. Dr. MaoMillan: "I beg my hon. friend's pardon. We have not

Mayor of Georgetown. He, Mr. Campbell, was then Attorney Gen- eral and had visitcd Georgetown

in the curing oi fish for the French fishermen oi Quebec, New Bruns-

but had heard no oompiah from

any such power. ‘There is a con-

w. MacDonald. Under Liboral rule there had, he said, been only two disturbances in Prince County Jail and under the Conservatives there had been disturbances in each one of the Jails. The Jails had carried

tract entered into by two 0811108., and one party cannot repudiate ll without the consent of the other." Mr. Dennis referred to the ar- r- _, ments with inside c'vil ser- vants of thc Federal Government.

for a general salary cut. He cited a newspaper report predicting a re-

llinister of Public Works said then